Comments on: Competing From Different Sets of Tees http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/ Northern California Golf Association Fri, 16 May 2008 08:24:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: Jim Cowan http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-574 Jim Cowan Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:58:41 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-574 Cliff, thank you for your comment. As the article indicates, you need to compare your net scores with the Course Rating of the tees you are playing (not par) to gauge how you played in relationship to your handicap. You are naturally expected to shoot lower net scores when you play the easier White tees. A net score equal to the Course Rating would indicate that you played right to your handicap that day. So your "target" net score when you play the Blue tees is a 71. Your "target" net score when you play the White tees is a 68. A gross 85 from the Blue tees and 81 from the White tees would achieve these target scores. So, in other words, an 85 from the Blue tees is considered a nearly identical performance to an 81 from the White tees within the Handicap System. What this means is that if you play from Blue against others playing from White, they need to give you an additional three strokes (71.1 - 67.7 = 3.4, round to 3). If you play from White against others playing from Blue, you need to give them an additional three strokes. If you all play from the same tees, you all have the same target net score and no additional adjustment is required. Thanks - Jim Cowan Cliff, thank you for your comment. As the article indicates, you need to compare your net scores with the Course Rating of the tees you are playing (not par) to gauge how you played in relationship to your handicap. You are naturally expected to shoot lower net scores when you play the easier White tees. A net score equal to the Course Rating would indicate that you played right to your handicap that day. So your “target” net score when you play the Blue tees is a 71. Your “target” net score when you play the White tees is a 68. A gross 85 from the Blue tees and 81 from the White tees would achieve these target scores. So, in other words, an 85 from the Blue tees is considered a nearly identical performance to an 81 from the White tees within the Handicap System. What this means is that if you play from Blue against others playing from White, they need to give you an additional three strokes (71.1 - 67.7 = 3.4, round to 3). If you play from White against others playing from Blue, you need to give them an additional three strokes. If you all play from the same tees, you all have the same target net score and no additional adjustment is required. Thanks - Jim Cowan

]]> By: Cliff Nagle http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-572 Cliff Nagle Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:46:51 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-572 My Handicap Index is 12.0. When I play from the Blue tees with a Slope of 129 and Course Rating of 71.1 my handicap is 14. When I play from the White tees with a Slope of 124 and a Course Rating of 67.7 my handicap drops by only one stroke even though the course is 718 yards shorter and makes all the holes reachable in regulation. What are we missing in order to make things equitable so that I can play with groups from either set of tees? My Handicap Index is 12.0. When I play from the Blue tees with a Slope of 129 and Course Rating of 71.1 my handicap is 14. When I play from the White tees with a Slope of 124 and a Course Rating of 67.7 my handicap drops by only one stroke even though the course is 718 yards shorter and makes all the holes reachable in regulation. What are we missing in order to make things equitable so that I can play with groups from either set of tees?

]]> By: Jim Cowan http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-568 Jim Cowan Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:40:41 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-568 Tom Bret, thank you for your comments. Never, ever, ever apply an adjustment to the Handicap Index of players. The adjustment here and everywhere else (like when you are only awarded 90% of your handicap in a particular team format) applies to the Course Handicaps of the players, not the Handicap Index. The process starts by adjusting each golfer's full Handicap Index to the Course Handicap Table (Slope Table) of the tees they are playing. Once you have these two numbers in hand, in your example the woman would add four strokes to her Course Handicap based upon a 3.6 stroke difference in Course Rating (round to the nearest stroke; .5 rounds up). If she works out to a 30 and him a 20, she will be the recipient of ten strokes in a head-to-head match. She receives her strokes on her top ten ranked holes. Whether his strokes holes are different or not is immaterial. If he was the one getting the strokes, he would receive them on his stroke holes. That's it - thanks again - Jim Cowan. Tom Bret, thank you for your comments.
Never, ever, ever apply an adjustment to the Handicap Index of players. The adjustment here and everywhere else (like when you are only awarded 90% of your handicap in a particular team format) applies to the Course Handicaps of the players, not the Handicap Index. The process starts by adjusting each golfer’s full Handicap Index to the Course Handicap Table (Slope Table) of the tees they are playing. Once you have these two numbers in hand, in your example the woman would add four strokes to her Course Handicap based upon a 3.6 stroke difference in Course Rating (round to the nearest stroke; .5 rounds up).

If she works out to a 30 and him a 20, she will be the recipient of ten strokes in a head-to-head match. She receives her strokes on her top ten ranked holes. Whether his strokes holes are different or not is immaterial. If he was the one getting the strokes, he would receive them on his stroke holes. That’s it - thanks again - Jim Cowan.

]]> By: Tom Bret http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-566 Tom Bret Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:05:14 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-566 Sorry, you have to reverse the number stroke hole in my example in the last sentence of the third paragraph, it is his number one stroke hole, her number 13. Sorry, you have to reverse the number stroke hole in my example in the last sentence of the third paragraph, it is his number one stroke hole, her number 13.

]]> By: Tom Bret http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-565 Tom Bret Thu, 07 Feb 2008 01:59:40 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-565 I do not get your comparison of a woman’s rating of 74 & man’s of 70. You have the woman add 4 strokes to her course handicap. What if the ratings are 73.7 for the woman and 70.1 for the man? How do you add 3.6 strokes to the woman’s course handicap? I always thought the procedure is to take the rating differential between the tees, in my example 3.6. Since the woman is playing the tees with the highest rating I would add 3.6 to her current handicap index, which I would call her “adjusted handicap index”. Then I would look up her course handicap using her adjusted handicap index. The man would determine his course handicap as usual. In my method the couple then has full stroke differences in course handicap. If the tees the woman plays has a different set of handicap ratings for various holes than the man’s tees then they can not “net” their course handicaps. For example assume her course handicap is 30, using her adjusted handicap index, and his is 20. Normally playing from the same tees she gets one stroke on the No one through ten stroke holes. But if they are playing a hole rated third for him but fifth for her he should get one stroke and she gets two strokes. On the other hand if the hole is the 13th stroke hole for him, but the number one stroke hole for her, he gets 2 strokes and she gets one stroke. I plan on using your answer to add a discussion of playing from different tees to Wikipedia’s discussion of handicap indexes, so give me a good answer, and Wikipedia likes authoritative cites as well. For example currently Wikipedia classifies the explanation of Equitable Stroke Control posted there as non-authoritative although it appears to me to be entirely correct. I do not get your comparison of a woman’s rating of 74 & man’s of 70. You have the woman add 4 strokes to her course handicap. What if the ratings are 73.7 for the woman and 70.1 for the man? How do you add 3.6 strokes to the woman’s course handicap?

I always thought the procedure is to take the rating differential between the tees, in my example 3.6. Since the woman is playing the tees with the highest rating I would add 3.6 to her current handicap index, which I would call her “adjusted handicap index”. Then I would look up her course handicap using her adjusted handicap index. The man would determine his course handicap as usual. In my method the couple then has full stroke differences in course handicap.

If the tees the woman plays has a different set of handicap ratings for various holes than the man’s tees then they can not “net” their course handicaps. For example assume her course handicap is 30, using her adjusted handicap index, and his is 20. Normally playing from the same tees she gets one stroke on the No one through ten stroke holes. But if they are playing a hole rated third for him but fifth for her he should get one stroke and she gets two strokes. On the other hand if the hole is the 13th stroke hole for him, but the number one stroke hole for her, he gets 2 strokes and she gets one stroke.

I plan on using your answer to add a discussion of playing from different tees to Wikipedia’s discussion of handicap indexes, so give me a good answer, and Wikipedia likes authoritative cites as well. For example currently Wikipedia classifies the explanation of Equitable Stroke Control posted there as non-authoritative although it appears to me to be entirely correct.

]]> By: Jim Cowan http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-158 Jim Cowan Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:59:57 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-158 Rich, It is my understanding that since there were far fewer men in the field for this qualifier than women, instead of awarding all the men three additional strokes based on the difference in ratings, three strokes were deducted from the women. The net 68 that the woman recorded that you referenced would have represented a net 65 had she only been competing against women. A net 65 represents a performance two strokes under her handicap whereas a net 69 by a man is only one stroke better than his. Had the women's handicaps been left alone and had three strokes been awarded to all the men, her net 65 would have beaten the net 66 of the man (net 69 adjusted for the three strokes). As to the tees used, our Rules and Competition Dept chose those tees for men since they were the closest in yardage to what the qualifiers would play if they advanced to the Championship proper. Thanks Jim Cowan Rich,
It is my understanding that since there were far fewer men in the field for this qualifier than women, instead of awarding all the men three additional strokes based on the difference in ratings, three strokes were deducted from the women. The net 68 that the woman recorded that you referenced would have represented a net 65 had she only been competing against women. A net 65 represents a performance two strokes under her handicap whereas a net 69 by a man is only one stroke better than his. Had the women’s handicaps been left alone and had three strokes been awarded to all the men, her net 65 would have beaten the net 66 of the man (net 69 adjusted for the three strokes). As to the tees used, our Rules and Competition Dept chose those tees for men since they were the closest in yardage to what the qualifiers would play if they advanced to the Championship proper. Thanks Jim Cowan

]]> By: Jim Cowan http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-157 Jim Cowan Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:37:25 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-157 Mike, I apologize for the delay in responding but I was only recently made aware of this new feature within our website. See the above response to Robert Carpenter regarding the software. As to your other questions and comments, I disagree that "most play ... is based net to par." It's simpler than that, all play is based on "low score wins." Net 72 by a man in your example beats the women's net 74 by two strokes everytime, it makes no difference whatsoever how each of those scores relate to par. As to the rest, let me give you an extreme example and see if it makes more sense. Suppose the man and woman always score an 85 from their respective tees (69.6/124 and 72.9/131). The man would ultimately be issued a Handicap Index of 13.4, this 13.4 would translate to a Course Handicap of 15 and the next time he shot his 85 he would record a net score of 70. The par of his tees had no bearing on the Index issued. The woman who shoots 85 would be issued a Handicap Index of 10.4, this 10.4 would translate to a Course Handicap of 12 and the next time she shot her 85 it would translate to a net score of 73. Same thing, the par of the tees she played had no bearing on the Index issued. Without giving her the extra three strokes she is entitled to when she competes against the man, she loses net 70 to net 73 everytime. As to your last question about the 2 men/2 women team where you count the low man's and low woman's score per hole, yes the three strokes should be awarded to women. These three strokes could impact each team differently depending on how well the women performed on those three extra stroke holes. Thanks Jim Cowan Mike,
I apologize for the delay in responding but I was only recently made aware of this new feature within our website. See the above response to Robert Carpenter regarding the software. As to your other questions and comments, I disagree that “most play … is based net to par.” It’s simpler than that, all play is based on “low score wins.” Net 72 by a man in your example beats the women’s net 74 by two strokes everytime, it makes no difference whatsoever how each of those scores relate to par. As to the rest, let me give you an extreme example and see if it makes more sense. Suppose the man and woman always score an 85 from their respective tees (69.6/124 and 72.9/131). The man would ultimately be issued a Handicap Index of 13.4, this 13.4 would translate to a Course Handicap of 15 and the next time he shot his 85 he would record a net score of 70. The par of his tees had no bearing on the Index issued. The woman who shoots 85 would be issued a Handicap Index of 10.4, this 10.4 would translate to a Course Handicap of 12 and the next time she shot her 85 it would translate to a net score of 73. Same thing, the par of the tees she played had no bearing on the Index issued. Without giving her the extra three strokes she is entitled to when she competes against the man, she loses net 70 to net 73 everytime. As to your last question about the 2 men/2 women team where you count the low man’s and low woman’s score per hole, yes the three strokes should be awarded to women. These three strokes could impact each team differently depending on how well the women performed on those three extra stroke holes. Thanks Jim Cowan

]]> By: Jim Cowan http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-156 Jim Cowan Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:13:21 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-156 Robert Carpenter, The NCGA is only able to issue the software to our member clubs. Check with your club, they have a copy of the program. Once installed, the software can be updated to its most recent version via the internet. Thanks Jim Cowan Robert Carpenter,
The NCGA is only able to issue the software to our member clubs. Check with your club, they have a copy of the program. Once installed, the software can be updated to its most recent version via the internet. Thanks Jim Cowan

]]> By: rich http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-130 rich Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:02:40 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-130 I understand what you are coming from but some decisions do not make since. In all ncga events ive played have all been from the white tees. how do you explain the following: I recently competed in the net amateur and the men played from the blues par 72 69.9 121 6202 women played green 71 67.1 111 4793 How can it be fair that a woman shoot a net 68 with a rating almost 3 strokes lower 1400yards closer and a slope 10 lower than a man playing to a net 69. the man is a stroke lower than his rating 69-69.9 and the woman is one higher68-67.1. seems if the men play white at 67.9and 116 5770 would be closer to fair please respond I understand what you are coming from but some decisions do not make since. In all ncga events ive played have all been from the white tees. how do you explain the following: I recently competed in the net amateur and the men played from the blues par
72 69.9 121 6202
women played green 71 67.1 111 4793
How can it be fair that a woman shoot a net 68 with a rating almost 3 strokes lower 1400yards closer and a slope 10 lower than a man
playing to a net 69. the man is a stroke lower than his rating 69-69.9
and the woman is one higher68-67.1. seems if the men play white at 67.9and 116 5770 would be closer to fair please respond

]]> By: mike http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-92 mike Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:57:29 +0000 http://www.ncga.org/2007/06/18/competing-from-different-sets-of-tees/#comment-92 Jim, where can I get a copy? I sort of get this but a piece still seems off since most play is not based on net to the rating but net to par. So real situation is men in white tees have 69.6, par 70 and slope of 124. Women on red play 72.9, par 73 and slope of 131. Everyone plays same course everyday. It would seem over time your handicap would indicate how one plays the course relative to the rating. Since both the par and the slope are different it would seem that some of the difference should already be accounted for in handicap index. We play a lot of couple tournaments. By your measure I think we need to add 3 strokes more for the women. But if the woman shoots a 74 she is plus one to par. If a man shoots a 72 he is plus 2 to par. He loses. No one looks to the rating. It just does not seem to be that linear of just comparing the ratings. I thought you have all lectured us that the entire point of the slope was to account for the differences in difficulty based on ratings. BTW, did I get the match correct? A 3.3 difference in ratings results in 3 extra strokes. If we play a tournament where it is two women and two men on a team and on each hole we take one man, one woman, would we need to add strokes? Technically the men and women would be competing separately. Ok, I am asking too many questions. Jim, where can I get a copy? I sort of get this but a piece still seems off since most play is not based on net to the rating but net to par. So real situation is men in white tees have 69.6, par 70 and slope of 124. Women on red play 72.9, par 73 and slope of 131. Everyone plays same course everyday. It would seem over time your handicap would indicate how one plays the course relative to the rating. Since both the par and the slope are different it would seem that some of the difference should already be accounted for in handicap index. We play a lot of couple tournaments. By your measure I think we need to add 3 strokes more for the women. But if the woman shoots a 74 she is plus one to par. If a man shoots a 72 he is plus 2 to par. He loses. No one looks to the rating. It just does not seem to be that linear of just comparing the ratings. I thought you have all lectured us that the entire point of the slope was to account for the differences in difficulty based on ratings. BTW, did I get the match correct? A 3.3 difference in ratings results in 3 extra strokes. If we play a tournament where it is two women and two men on a team and on each hole we take one man, one woman, would we need to add strokes? Technically the men and women would be competing separately. Ok, I am asking too many questions.

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