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if you can not find your ball in a lateral hazard do you lose a stroke or do you juust place a ball where your original ball entered.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:56 pmScott,
November 24th, 2008 at 5:06 pmFor your answer I will refer to Rule 26 (Water Hazards) of the Rules of Golf. If you have knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is lost in the water hazard, than you have four options. #1 Play a ball as nearly as possible to the spot from which the original ball was last played. #2 Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or #3 As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard (red stake or line), drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard; or #4 a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole. In all four options you will be dropping the ball and receiving a one-stroke penalty. Thank you for your question.
I’m always confused by the different options with a red hazard stake and a yellow stake.
Is it just that you lose the “two club lengths” option or is there more to it?
November 24th, 2008 at 5:23 pmThanks
Frank,
November 24th, 2008 at 5:49 pmFor your answer I will refer to the Definition Section and Rule 26 of the Rules of Golf. A lateral water hazard is a water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible, or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable, to drop a ball behind the water hazard. You are correct that the “two club length” options are the only relief difference and that is pretty much it. Thank you for your question.
When marking your ball on the green. Situation; Fellow opponent was ask to move his ball which was in my line. The opponent did not mark his ball but moved his ball one putter length and placed his marker. What is the ruling???? Is there any infraction???
November 24th, 2008 at 10:09 pmDon,
November 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pmI will use Decision 20-1/16 (Method Used to Mark Position of Ball). When moving a ball or ball-marker to the side to prevent it from interfering with another player’s stance or stroke, the player may measure from the side of the ball or ball-marker. In order to accurately replace the ball on the spot from which it was lifted, the steps used to move the ball or ball-marker to the side should be reversed. If the procedure is not followed, and this causes the ball to be replaced and played from a wrong place, the player would be subject to a two-stroke penalty. Thank you for the question.
After hitting your shot you see your ball rolling back toward you and a water hazard. Are you allowed to pick up your ball before it goes in the hazard?
November 25th, 2008 at 12:04 amJohn - I will refer you to the discussion of the Helen Alfredsson incident below. There is a penalty under Rule 1-2 for exerting influence on a ball in motion of two strokes. This is in addtion to the one-stroke water hazard penalty. If you are dropping, and you stop the ball from entering the water after it has entered the margin of the hazard, there is NO penalty so long as it is clear the ball is entering the hazard. This is not the case when stopping a ball in motion after you have made a shot.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:12 amThis is a great article.
With my ball lying on a cartpath, the nearest point of relief will make it so that I must drop in the rough and not the fairway on the opposite side of the path. Is this right? Must I drop in the rough?
November 25th, 2008 at 9:54 amB L - Yes, you must drop in the rough in this situation. “Nearest point of relief” does not guarantee a good lie, it just gives you relief from the immovable obstruction. Of course, you can always play the ball as it lies. The rules only mandate that if you take relief, you must take complete relief at the nearest point no closer to the hole.
November 25th, 2008 at 9:58 amThis came up in a tournament. My ball was on the cart path and nearest relief put me onto ground under repair. Am I allowed to drop onto the ground under repair, making my ball in play. Then take a drop for relief from the ground under repair? Its confusing but what I’m asking is can you take two drops, even though they end up further away then if I would have dropped on the other side of the path. Our group was unsure and I beleive I was correct in taking two drops.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:06 amJosh,
November 25th, 2008 at 10:09 amI will use Decision 24-2b/10 (obstruction in ground under repair interferes with player’s swing). The player may choose to take relief from just the obstruction into the ground under repair or take relief from both the obstruction and ground under repair in one step. In either case, there is no penalty. Thank you for the question.
I had a situation where I had to hit a low shot through a bunker in an effort to get the ball on the green Upon inspecting the bunker I find that it has not been raked and the deep footprints may influence my shot, and there are a couple of pinecones in the bunker also. May I rake the bunker and toss the pinecones out? Thanks.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:03 amBrian - Removing pine cones is okay as long as your ball is not in the bunker (if your ball was in the bunker, removing loose impediments in the same bunker is penalized). But be careful when you take this action - you can’t do anything that might imply that you are testing the surface of the bunker, and you cannot rake the foot prints you created. Raking the bunker on your line of play is improving your line in clear violation of 13-2, which carries with it a two-stroke penalty in stroke play and a loss-of-hole penalty in match play. Thanks for the question.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:04 amA fellow competitor hit his ball into a sand trap which came to rest on a rake. It was clear to us his ball would roll down the bunker if the rake was moved. How is he to proceed?
November 25th, 2008 at 12:15 pmKurt,
I will use Rule 24-1 (Obstructions) to answer your question. If the ball was “on” the rake the player would remove the rake and drop the ball in the bunker as close as possible to where the ball lay “on” the rake. If the ball was not on the rake the rake may be removed. If the ball moves, it must be replaced, and there is no penalty, provided that the movement of the ball is directly attributable to the removal of the rake. Thank you for the question.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:17 pmI was playing golf with my father. From the tee box we both found the fairway bunker. I had a good lie but my father could not find his ball. We did find it near the lip completely buried but not until after some digging. What’s the ruling?
November 25th, 2008 at 12:57 pmRon B.,
November 25th, 2008 at 2:28 pmI will use Rule 12-1 of the Rules of Golf to answer your question. In a hazard (including a bunker), if a ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments or sand, the player may remove by probing or raking with a club or otherwise, as many loose impediments or as much sand as will enable him to see a part of the ball. If an excess is removed, there is no penalty and the ball must be re-covered so that only a part of the ball is visible. If the ball is moved during the removal, there is no penalty; the ball must be replaced and, if necessary, re-covered. Also see Decision 12-1/2 which states that the player may than wipe away enough sand to be able to see a part of the ball. There is no penalty associated with this procedure. Thank you for the question.
From a “fried egg” lie in a bunker, the player strikes his shot over the green. After a search, it is determined that the ball has been lost. The player returns to the bunker, which he raked after his shot, to put another ball into play. Is this ball dropped as near as possible or does the player have to recreate the lie in the bunker and place the ball? Would this be the same if the ball had been played out of a water hazard or lateral water hazard? Thanks, Bob Marshall
November 25th, 2008 at 4:24 pmBob,
November 25th, 2008 at 4:24 pmThere is a specific decision in the Decisions on The Rules of Golf Book that describes this very situation (Decision 13-4/37) but you also need Rule 20-5 (Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made) to fully answer your question. Rule 20-5c. states that a ball to be played must be dropped in the hazard (including a bunker) and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard. Thank you for the question.
During the recent LPGA tournament in Florida, Helen Alfreddson made a shot on to the 18th green. The ball spun off down into a lateral water hazard. she took a drop and on the next shot it failed to get to the green and as a result it headed back downhill towards the same hazard. The hazard line was about 12″ from the water and when the ball reached the water’s edge she bent over and picked it up prior to it going in the water. After conferring with the officials, it was deemed that there was no violation of the rules. It was never explained on TV or I may have missed it. How can this not be a violation?
November 25th, 2008 at 9:42 pmGeorge,
November 26th, 2008 at 11:08 amThe following is what I found about the situation from the Miami Herald:
Miscommunication with an LPGA rules official led to a 30-minute discussion over whether Alfredsson should be penalized for stopping a flubbed chip from rolling into the pond — even though she took a penalty drop as though the ball splashed in.
Technically, that’s a violation of Rule 1-2 for interfering with a ball in motion. However, Alfredsson and her caddie were adamant that she had the go-ahead from official Jane Reynolds so she could keep the ball from getting wet.
In the end, it was decided not to penalize Alfredsson two more strokes. ”We deem this to be committee error,” rules chief Doug Brecht said.
Not that the result would have made much difference. Alfredsson signed for a 2-over-par 74 — two shots below the standard needed to advance to Sunday’s shootout. The additional penalty would have left her four shots out.
Alfredsson could not be found for comment afterward.
The Swede already had found the water once, her approach shot rolling down the shaved embankment that guards the pond. After taking a penalty drop, she hit a weak chip that never made it back up the hill.
As her ball was rolling back downhill, Alfredsson asked Reynolds if she could stop it simply to keep it from going in the water. Reynolds gave a nodding motion, and Alfredsson stuck her club in front of the rolling ball.
As it turned out, Reynolds told Brecht she never heard the question and the nodding motion wasn’t meant as a response.
”Helen interpreted [the nod] as meaning yes,” Brecht said.
Thank you for the question.
If you hit over a water hazard landing on the green and your ball spins back into the water wher do you take your drop?
November 26th, 2008 at 11:19 amBehind the hazard, keeping the spot where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the hole.You may go back as far as you wish The 2 club length option is only for lateral water hazards. It’s Rule 26, I think…
November 26th, 2008 at 12:53 pmBob - Thanks for doing our job for us. That is correct and it is indeed in Rule 26.
November 26th, 2008 at 3:15 pmWhile attending an NCGA tournament I was surprised by the action a caddie took while “indicating line of play”. I believe the caddie observed the rule as written, not standing directly behind the player during the stroke, but was the rest of his advice not in the spirit of the rules in my opinion.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:40 amHere is a typical scenario on the green.
Discussion of speed, green conditions, etc.
Discussion of number of ball widths of break and which direction. IE two to the right
Player addresses ball, grounds putter on green behind ball.
Caddie standing directly behind the player and while sighting the putter head says ” more right” - player adjusts aim, “more right” player adjusts aim again.
This continued until the caddie was satisfied the putter was aimed properly, he would take a step sideways so as not to be on the line of play, then the player would take a stroke at the ball.
Essentially the caddie was lining up the putter head on every putt.
This seems to go beyond indicating line of play, but I don’t see anything in the rules against such actions.
Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for this feature!
A Nordhuff,
You are correct that the player and caddie did not violate any rules. A caddie can give any advice to his player before the player attempts the shot. Therefore there is nothing that prohibits a caddie lining up the player in this way as long as he moves before the shot as covered in Rule 14-2b.
If the caddie was only taking one step to the side, I might have asked him to move a little further out as the rule prohibits standing “on or close to an extension of the line of play or the line of putt” and one step is pretty close.
As for the spirit of the rule, caddies have been a part of the game since it began in Scotland and have always been allowed to dispense advice. While many people, such as yourself, don’t like to see the caddie this involved in the game, it is totally within that spirit for him to offer any assistance before the shot. Until 1976, the caddie could even have stood on extension of the line of putt when the putt was made. In 2004, the rule was extended to also prohibit standing on the extension of the line of play for all other shots.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:45 amWhile playing match play, on the 6th I scored a 5 and my opponent scored a 6. I miscounted (in my mind) and thought that we had halved the hole.
November 28th, 2008 at 5:12 amwe teed off on the 7th, and near the green my opponent questioned the score on the 6th. It was then that I realised I should have won the 6th and just thought that it was too late to do anything about it and the hole would have to remain at being halved.
However my opponent then claimed the hole on the basis of dec 9-2/15.
This seems very unfair, but I have studied the dec and it seems he was entitled to do so. Am I missreading it?
Thanks, Don
Don,
You are correct in your reading of Decision 9-2/15. If you told your opponent that you made a 6 or otherwise indicated that the hole was halved, you do lose the 6th hole for giving wrong information as stated in Rule 9-2b(iii).
The reasoning behind this is that the players in a match need to know the status of the match before taking any further action. When the tee shots on the 7th hole were hit, both players thought the status of the match was different than it really was. This may have caused your opponent to play the 7th hole differently than he would otherwise have played it. Once that error was discovered, your opponent had the right to claim the 6th hole under Rule 9-2.
November 28th, 2008 at 5:15 amyou hit your tee shot onto the wrong green. how do your proceed, and is there a penalty
November 29th, 2008 at 5:44 pmRaul,
If your ball comes to rest on a wrong putting green, you must take relief and proceed under Rule 25-3. You must find the nearest point of relief that is not in a hazard, is off the green and is not nearer the hole. You must drop within one club-length of that point and the ball must first strike a part of the ocurse that not in a hazard or on a putting green. There is no penalty.
One major difference between this relief and others is that you only take relief for the ball and not your stance or area of intended swing. Therefore, if the ball is on the fringe there is no relief, even if you are standing on the green or the divot you might make would damage the green.
November 29th, 2008 at 5:55 pmThis actually happened to me. My approach stopped about 5 feet behind the pin on a downhill lie toward the cup. After marking the ball, I walked to the other side of the hole to get a read and the ball began slowly rolling (to make matters worse it actually ended up in the hole). I replaced the ball at the mark but the ball would not stay still. What do you do when your ball will not stay where it was marked?
November 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pmMichael - Marking your ball without lifting it does not take your ball out of play. Therefore, when your ball moved, you must determine what caused it to move. If, when marking the ball, you bumped it, you might have caused it to move and you would not be penalized under Rule 18-2a and must replace it. If some outside agency caused it to move, you would replace it with no penalty. In this case, it sounds like wind or gravity caused it to move. These are not outside agencies as defined so Rule 18-1 does not apply and the ball shall be played as it lies. Since the ball came to rest in the hole, you holed out with your previous shot.
Your replacing of the ball did not matter as the hole was complete when you holed out, but if you get in a situation where you must replace your ball and it won’t stay in place, you must find the nearest point that is not nearer the hole where it will remain at rest and play from there. If it was a very steep green, that might actually be off the green.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:15 pmThe ball is in play if your ball moves from the marker. (I’m 95% sure)
November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pmWhile playing a tournament, on a par 3, the shaft on my club broke right in half apon impack with the ball. The shaft went about 50 yards into a hazard, as did the ball. What is the correct play and score taken on this hole?
December 1st, 2008 at 2:27 amBrian,
Your club was broken during the normal course of play. Under Rule 4-3a, you have three options. You could use it as it is for the rest of the round; without delaying play, repair it; or since it was unfit for play, without delaying play, replace it. However, you could not replace it by borrowing one that someone else was using. Your ball was in play when you made the stroke at it and the score you made with it would be your score for the hole.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:01 amScott, On a chip shot you hit the ball, but as you follow through with the club you hit the ball again in air. I know you count one stroke for the shot, one stroke penalty for hitting the ball twice, but I don’t see where you have to take another stroke for the second hit of the ball. Is this correct. Thanks, Jim
December 1st, 2008 at 11:58 pmJim,
You are correct that you count the stroke and add one penalty stroke as stated in Rule 14-4. Even if you hit the ball 2 or 3 times on the follow through it would just be one penalty stroke.
You don’t count a stroke for the second hit because a “Stroke” is defined as “the forward movement of the club with the intention of striking the ball” and you defintely didn’t intend to hit it a second time.
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:18 amIn a team match, player A and B are playing against players C and D. Player B is putting for par and misses about 6 inches to the right, roughly in the line of his playing partner A who is about 8 feet away and will be putting for birdie. Player C conceeds player B’s putt and player B, out of habit, goes up to his ball and taps it in for his bogie. Players C and D protest the tap-in of player B stating that he may have assisted his partner with speed or line. While it may be a rather silly rule and circumstance, it is my contention that the score for player B stands and that player A is disqualified for the hole. Am I correct?
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:55 amJeff,
Decision 2-4/6 states a player may putt out after a concession, unless it would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match in which case the partner (A in this case) would be disqualiifed.
It might be arguable as to whether a 6-inch putt would be of assistance to someone with an 8-foot putt and without knowing the circumstances of a specific case I wouldn’t want to venture, but if there was any question as to assistance A would be disqualified from the hole.
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:29 amI was playing in an NCGA 2 man team event this summer. On one hole I was near the green waiting to hit my shot. One of my competitors was 100 yds from the green and hit an approach shot over a water hazard into a greenside bunker. He then dropped another ball and hit a second shot without explaining his action to us. There was an NCGA official behind the green and I told him that his second shot would be the one in play since he didn’t notify our team of his actions. When the competitor reach the green, the official talked to him and ruled that he could play his first ball. Is this the correct ruling?
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:29 pmTom,
Without knowing all the circumstances, it is hard to say if a correct ruling was given. There are two possible reasons for playing another ball:
1) Provisional Ball - If he thought his ball was lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, he could have played a provisional ball. But, as you noted, he must inform his fellow competitor or marker before playing it and he didn’t. This would make the second ball his ball in play under stroke and distance rather than a provisional. If there was anyone else in the area and he didn’t want to yell up to you, he might have told them, which the official could have accepted.
2) Playing a second ball under Rule 3-3 - In stroke play, if he was uncertain as to what to do, he could play a second ball under Rule 3-3. If he was in an area that might have been unmarked ground under repair or some such thing he might have been unsure and decided to play under 3-3. But, once again, he is supposed to inform you and also state which ball he wants to count if the rules allow it. If he fails to meet either of these obligations, the first ball will generally be the one that counts. The official might have noted that he failed to notify you and told him that he must play the first ball.
Again, not knowing his intentions or the reasoning of the official, these are the only valid reasons I can come up with for his being allowed to play his first ball. Of course, it is also possible that our official made a mistake in letting him continue with his first ball. As much as we try not to do so, we do occasionally make mistakes. If you ever think that an incorrect ruling has been made, you should immediately ask the official for clarification. You can also ask for a second opinion if you don’t feel the answer you got was acceptable.
December 3rd, 2008 at 3:03 pmWhile golfing with one of my buddies we each hit our balls into a green side bunker, upon reaching the hole we noticed the balls were practically touching in the sand. We picked up the closer of the two, played the second as it was and then raked the bunker and dropped the first ball back to its original spot. Was this correct or is there another way this should have been played?
December 4th, 2008 at 8:53 pmDan,
You were correct to lift the ball, marking its location (possibly one or more club-head lengths to the side). After the first player played, you need to recreate the lie for the second ball as best as possible and then place the ball in that lie. If, for example, the ball was in a foot print, you would make a foot print similar to the one it was in and place the ball accordingly. If it was in a cleanly raked area, you should re-rake and place it there.
December 5th, 2008 at 9:09 amWas there a two stroke penalty for dropping instead of placing? And could the ball that was lifted be cleaned?
December 5th, 2008 at 9:59 amDan,
If you drop instead of placing or place instead of dropping and then play the ball, it is a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of the hole in match play. If you realize your mistake before playing the ball, you can always correct it under Rule 20-6. See Decision 20-6/1.
Since the ball was lifted under Rule 22 (Ball Assisting or Interfering with Play) it can not be cleaned. If it was cleaned it would be an additional one-stroke penalty.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:28 amWhile playing in a 2 man best-ball match a player from the other team conceeded my second putt, then knocked it away on the line of his partners upcoming putt. His rolling my ball clearly helped his partner although he said that he did not indend to help him. Is there any penalty?
December 6th, 2008 at 10:48 pmJeff,
Decision 16-1d/2 covers this situation. According to that decision, “It is a question of fact whether or not the player’s action was for the purpose of testing the surface of the putting green. The manner and apparent purpose of the action would be the determining factors in each individual case.”
If he casually hit it back to you, it probably isn’t a penalty. If he took some time and hit it in a way that clearly was intended to show his partner the break, it would be a penalty.
December 6th, 2008 at 10:50 pmWhile playing in a tournament, my opponent clearly sliced his drive into a lateral water hazzard, located to the right of the fairway. While I walked to my ball, he dropped his ball in the fairway and hit his third shot. He claimed he was entitled to a “line of flight” drop. Is there such a drop provision for either a red or yellow staked hazzard? Thank you.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:50 amJ. Hatfield,
Players are not permitted to drop anywhere along the line of flight. This is one of the biggest misconceptions that many golfers have. If the player chooses not to play the ball as it lies (or can’t find it and it is virtually certain it went in the hazard) the following options are available.
If the hazard was marked with yellow stakes the player can play with a penalty stroke in 2 places. The first to play from where the last shot was played. The second is on a line that keeps the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard directly between the hole and where he drops the ball. This is the choice that is frequently confused with “line of flight”. If the ball flew into the hazard, the point of reference to keep between the drop and the hole is where it crossed the edge of the hazard in the air.
If the hazard had red stakes there are two other options under penalty of one stroke. One is to drop within two club-lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, no nearer the hole than that point. The other is to find a point on the opposite margin of the hazard that is the same distance from the hole as the point above and drop within two club-lengths of that point. Notice that the point must be exactly the same distance from the hole.
Frequently one or more of these options is not possible. For example, if you hit it in the ocean on the 18th hole at Pebble Beach, there is no point equidistant on the opposite margin of the hazard.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:52 amI was only able to finish 15 holes due to injury. Do I only post 9 holes or how do I go about posting 18 holes.
Thank you!
December 7th, 2008 at 1:34 pmTim,
Any time you play 13 or more holes you should post your score. For the purpose of posting, you should determine the number of handicap strokes you would receive on each of the unplayed holes and add that to par for those holes. For example, if you would have received strokes on the 16th and 18th holes, you should count the final three holes as bogey, par, bogey and post that score.
If you play 7-12 holes you should post the front 9 as a 9-hole score. If you only played 7 or 8, do the same as above to determine that score.
December 7th, 2008 at 1:36 pmWhat if I am close to a water hazard and decide to chip up a hill. I miss hit and the ball rolls back down into the hazard and looks like it will enter the water but I catch the ball before it does. Just play it as a water hazard situation or am I penalized for picking it up? thanks, pat
December 7th, 2008 at 1:38 pmPat,
This was the situation a few weeks ago with Helen Alfredsson on the LPGA Tour. Ryan Gregg covered it in his response to George Tinseth above. You would be penalized two strokes or loss of hole for a violation of Rule 1-2. In stroke play you would have to drop it at the point you picked it up unless you choose to proceed under the Water Hazard rule with an additional penalty shot.
December 8th, 2008 at 9:33 amSomeone told me this one and I wanted to get your take. Two players in the same foursome play a par 3 each using a brand new ball and and the balls are the exact same without any identifying markings. The first player makes a 1 and the second player makes a 1 on top of him. When the players go to pull out the balls from the cup, they can’t tell whose ball is whose, because they are the exact same and brand new. Since the players cannot identify their ball, are the balls deemed lost and the players have to re-tee? This doesn’t seem right. Thanks.
December 9th, 2008 at 1:19 amJoe,
Decisions 27/10 and 12-2/1 do say that when two balls that are identical are found in the same area, the player who can not definitely identify his ball has a lost ball. But, Decisions 1-1/2, 1-1/3 and 1-1/4 make it clear that once a player holes his ball, the hole is complete. Since both balls were known to go in the hole, there is no need to determine which is which. Even if they were not seen going in the hole, but both were found there and no other similar balls are in the area, they would both be aces. If one ball was found in the hole and the other one was nearby and it couldn’t be determined which one was which, would they both be lost. This should point out why it is important to put an identifying mark on your golf ball.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:57 amI understand this rule:
2-4/6 Putting Out After Concession of Stroke
Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.
I was in a match today involving four players in 2 singles matches, but NOT four-ball (A against X and B against Y). AB and XY are from the same club and allowed by the committee to help each other read putts. If player A concedes a putt to X that is on a similar line to player Y, and then X putts out anyways thus giving a “read” to Y, is there a penalty? If so, to which player?
Perhaps the hole is halved between A and X? Or perhaps Y is disqualified, as X’s partner?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Wei Mao
December 10th, 2008 at 5:27 pmWei,
Typically in an event where two matches are being played simultaneously, the matches are separate contests and the players in one are outside agencies relative to the other. Unless Y asked X to putt it or X said that he would putt it to show Y the line and Y didn’t act to stop him, there would be nothing that could be done to prevent him from putting the ball (other than A or B picking up X’s ball when conceding it and handing it back to him.)
The complication comes in from your Committee’s decision to allow players from the same club to exchange advice on putts. As the following decision states, this would normally be a penalty. Given this, the Committee’s local rule allowing advice in this case is effectively waiving Rule 8. According to Rule 33-8b this a Committee can not make a rule that waives a rule of golf.
8-1/22 Team Mates Playing as Fellow-Competitors Exchange Advice
Q. The format for a competition between two teams is as follows: Individual stroke play, with the winner being the team with the lowest aggregate score. Play is in groups of four, with two players from each team in each group.
In such an event, may two team members playing in the same group give each other advice?
A. No. The team mates are fellow-competitors and not partners in this type of event, which is not the same as four-ball stroke play (Rule 31-1), and they would be penalized for each breach of Rule 8-1.
December 11th, 2008 at 9:15 amI have been lining up putts by using my putter as a ball mark behind the ball. Before touching the ball, I align the head and then prop the club. Then, I line up a line or such on the ball and then remove my ball mark / club. I know that you can use anything for a ball marker, but have not gotten a 100% sure answer from any other player if this is all fine with the rules. Will this suffice for marking and lining up a ball, or do I need to put down a marker like a coin or such. It seems to save time.
December 14th, 2008 at 11:54 amJ. Greenbaum,
Decision 20-1/16 says that it is permissible to use a club to mark the position of the ball. Therefore, what you are doing is ok.
It is not the recommended way to mark your ball as it is easier to accidentally move the club than a coin. It might save some time, but it might cost you a stroke if you’re not careful.
December 15th, 2008 at 9:05 amWhere should the rakes be placed, in or out of the bunker?
December 15th, 2008 at 11:44 amBo,
There is a Decision in the back of the Decisions book called Misc./2 that covers the placement of rakes. There is no right or wrong answer for this, but, the USGA does recommend that rakes be placed outside the bunker in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball. In the end, it is up to the Committee to decide where they want rakes to be placed.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pmPlease clarify the question of: using a tee or broken tee found/lying near or around the tee blocks, considered a breach of any rules? Such as possibly using someone else equipment? This question has been brought up a few times but i think it was read about in one of the golf mags. and reared its ugly head. THANKS!
December 15th, 2008 at 8:59 pmGreg,
There is no breach of rules for using a tee or broken tee found around the tee blocks. Anything except a club may be borrowed from another player. Decision 5-1/5 makes that clear. It says, in part: “Rule 4-4a prohibits a player from borrowing a club from another player playing on the course, but the Rules do not prevent a player from borrowing other items of equipment (balls, towels, gloves, tees, etc.) from another player or an outside agency.”
December 16th, 2008 at 9:23 amHelp,
December 18th, 2008 at 6:25 pmI was 50 feet away from the hole on the green and hit one of my few good putts of the day. My fellow competitor who was tending the flagstick was so excited about the accuracy of my putt that he forgot to pull the flagstick until the very last second and the ball hit the bottom of the stick as he was pulling it out of the hole. Is there a penalty and who gets it?
Rick,
The answer can be found in Decision 17-3/2.
Since your fellow-competitor’s failure to completely remove the flagstick appears not to have been deliberate, you incur a penalty of two strokes under Rule 17-3. Your fellow-competitor incurs no penalty. Be careful who you allow to attend the flagstick for you as you may ultimately be responsible for their errors.
If your fellow-competitor failed to completely remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing you to incur a penalty, your fellow-competitor would be disqualified for a serious breach of Rule 1-2. In equity (Rule 1-4), you would be required to replay the stroke without penalty.
If your fellow-competitor’s failure to completely remove the flagstick was for the purpose of preventing your ball from going beyond the flagstick and not for the purpose of causing you to incur a penalty, you would incur a penalty of two strokes under Rule 1-2, and your fellow-competitor would incur the same penalty under Rule 17-3a.
Rules officials are trained to inquire of the participants about their intentions. Only after making those inquiries can the answer be found.
December 18th, 2008 at 9:55 pmAt the Chevron Challenge on Sunday, I noticed that on a par 3, Vijay Singh repaired a ball mark while his ball was off the green. I was under the impression that a player could not remove loose impediments or repair ball marks while his or her ball lies off the green. What is the rule?
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 amDavid,
Rule 16-1c says in part “The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green.” Therefore, Vijay was allowed to fix the ball mark on the green.
Rule 23 says that as long as the loose impediment and the ball do not lie in or touch the same hazard (water or bunker), they may be removed. You may have been thinking of the fact that sand and loose soil are only loose impediments on the putting green so sand on the fringe may not be removed.
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:09 amA rules video on the USGA web site shows a chip shot by Payne Steward being deflected by a leaf, an outside agency with the ball ending up in the hole = rub of the green, no penalty and the ball is holed. If that same situation had occurred but after a stroke from the putting green instead of from off the green does Rule 19-1.b. tell us that the stroke must be replayed? And is there a difference between the leaf moving and the leaf at rest?
December 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pmDan,
Rule 19-1b does say that when a ball in motion from a stroke on the putting is deflected by a “moving” outside agency the stroke must be canceled and replayed. So, if the leaf is moving, you do replay the shot. If the leaf is at rest, it is still an outside agency, but since it is not moving, the stroke counts and the ball is played as it lies.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:34 amThanks John,
December 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pmNow, if you please, one more question based on this situation as I need clarification as to the differentiation, if any, between a “moving” outside agency and an “animate” outside agency. Decision 19-1/7 tells us that if a dog deflects or picks up a ball after a stroke from the green the ball is to be replaced and replayed. Does the replay occur whether the dog is moving or at rest, as that difference mattered regarding the leaf as an outside agency? Similarly, if a poorly aimed putt hits a standing, not moving, daydreaming fellow competitor is the ball replaced and replayed or played as it lies? In other words does the phrase “any moving or animate outside agency” tell us that there are two types of outside agencies: moving and animate meaning “having life, living”? Or are all outside agencies the same?
Dan,
December 29th, 2008 at 12:37 pmYes, a ball played from the putting green which strikes an outside agency that is animate is to be replayed even if that outside agency is not moving (with the exception of someone attending the flagstick which is covered under Rule 17-4). Otherwise a ball played from off the putting green which came to rest on a sleeping man would have to be played as it lies.
The inanimate outside agency must be moving. Decision 17/8 regarding a hole liner that comes out when the flagstick is removed makes that clear.
John,
December 30th, 2008 at 8:06 pmI was under the impression that a leaf is a loose impediment. It now seems to be a loose impediment only while at rest and an outside agency when in motion. If that is the case, if my ball is in a bunker and a leaf in the bunker is moving, may I treat the leaf as an outside agency and remove it from the bunker?
Mary,
The Definition of a Loose Impediment is “Loose impediments are natural objects including: stones, leaves, twigs … provided they are not fixed or growing, solidly embedded or adhering to the ball.” So a leaf is a loose impediment.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:39 amThe definition of an Outside Agency is any agency other than a part of my side including the players, caddies, equipment or a ball in play or, if it is match play, my opponents, their caddies, equipment or balls in play. Also, by definition, wind and water are not outside agencies. Everything else on the golf course is an outside agency, including spectators, fellow competitors in stroke play, buildings, trees and loose impediments.
Therefore an unattached leaf is both a loose impediment and an outside agency at all times. There is no movement restriction or requirement in either of the definitions. There is no relief per se from an outside agency so you could not pick up a leaf in a bunker just because it was moving.
I am on the putting green and I have marked and lifted my ball. I am cleaning my ball in a towel while walking along my putting line to the hole to get a good read. I don’t have good control of the ball while smothered in the towel and it pops out accidentally on to the green and rolls a few feet. It didn’t roll on my putting line, but I’m aware of a rule that forbids testing the green before I putt. Am I penalized for this accidental incident? Similarly, am I penalized when a ball accidentally falls out of my pocket when fishing out my ball mark or divot tool while on green and have not holed out.
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:56 pmC.G,
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:02 pmYou are not penalized for accidentally dropping your ball. Rule 16-1d only prohibits rolling a ball on the surface for the purpose of testing it. In neither case were you testing the surface intentionally.
what happens if I hit a ball that rolls into a gopher hole?
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:24 pmBartlett,
A gopher hole is a hole made by a burrowing animal and as such is an abnormal ground condition from which you get free relief under Rule 25. If your ball can be retrieved, you must do so and drop it within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, no nearer the hole. If the ball can not be retrieved, you may drop another ball instead.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:26 pmOn foggy morning last month, I blocked a tee shot right sending it into the a water hazard. Because of the fog I could not see the ball splash and used the line of the flight off the tee to estimate where the ball entered the hazard. My competitors in the foursome argued it was a lost ball as I did not see it enter the hazard and did not see it splash. Clearly, I had “virtual certainty” that it had, but my playing partners obviously did not. Who is correct? Can you define more precisely “knowledge” and virtual certainty? Thank you.
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 pmGregor,
Decision 26-1/1 discusses the meaning of “Known or Virtually Certain.” The following is from that decision:
January 5th, 2009 at 9:16 am“A player may not assume that his ball is in a water hazard simply because there is a possibility that his ball may be in the hazard. If it is not known that the ball is in the water hazard, in order for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1, there must be almost no doubt that the ball is in the hazard. Otherwise, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
All available evidence must be taken into account in determining whether knowledge or virtual certainty exists, including any testimony and the physical conditions in the area around the water hazard. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, there exists a greater certainty that the ball is in the hazard than there would be if there were deep rough in the area.”
On a course we play frequently there are areas where burrowing animals have taken up residence. Sometimes there may be 10-20 holes in an area otherwise devoid of grass or any other hiding place for a golf ball. If a ball ends up in such an area and is not found, it is in a hole. In order to use Rule 25.1.c must the player know which single hole the ball dove into or can the player make an educated choice or must the player proceed under Rule 27?
January 5th, 2009 at 11:48 amDan,
January 5th, 2009 at 12:08 pmIf it is known or virtually certain that the ball is lost in one of the burrowing animal holes, you can use Rule 25-1.c. If the burrowing animal holes are close together, the club should probably make the entire area Ground Under Repair so that you could drop outside it.
We checked with the USGA regarding what you should do if the area is not marked. The proper way to take relief depends on the circumstances. If the area is an open field or bare dirt, you should use the hole that is farthest from the hole in determining your relief. If the area is such that there are some places where a player would have an open shot to the green while others would only allow a chip out to the fairway, the player should find an area which was neither the most, nor the least, favorable of the various areas where it was equally possible that the ball originally lay. So, you should find a hole that gives you a shot somewhere near the average of the possible shots and take relief from it. This is consistent with Decision 18-1/5 for a ball that was taken by an outside agency from an unknown spot.
PLAYER A and B ARE IN A STROKE PLAY COMPETITION. ON THE 18TH HOLE BOTH HIT TEE SHOTS. THEN A ,TO TEST a CLUB BELONGING TO B HITS B’S DRIVER NEVER INTENDING TO DO OTHER THAN HIT A PRACTICE SHOT WITH B’S CLUB .IS THIS A BREACH OF 4-4a ,4-4c OR BOTH OR NO BREACH ? IF BREACH IS B DISQUALIFIED ?
IS B ALLOWED TO USE CLUB IN SUBSEQUENT PLAY OF HOLE ?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:42 pmLowell,
Since it was not Player A’s intention to put a ball into play, but merely to hit a practice shot with B’s club, he would be penalized 2 strokes for a violation of Rule 7-2 (Practice during Round) as this type of practice is not allowed. Decision 4-4a/13 says that the borrowing of a club does not breach Rule 4-4a if it was not used to make a stroke that counted in the player’s score. Player B is not penalized in any way and could subsequently use the club.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:22 amHi,player A hit a drive that comes to rest near a bunker. Upon getting closer to the ball, player a is upset that the ball is in the rough after such a nice drive. He slams his club into the ground 5 feet awar from the ball and the ball rolls into the bunker.
Does he get to replace the ball or play it from the bunker.
Regards,
January 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pmElliott
Elliott,
The answer to your question lies in the question of what caused the ball to roll into the bunker. If the facts are such that the player caused the ball to move, he would replace it with a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2a. If he didn’t cause it to move and no other outside agency did, he would play it from the bunker with no penalty. In the instance you describe, I believe he caused it to move so the ball would need to be replaced and he would be penalized. If he failed to replace it, the penalty would be 2 strokes in stroke play or loss of hole in match play.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:55 pmI hit a shot to the green from a 100 yards that landed short into a bunker. Before I advance to the ball, I decide to declare the ball unplayable (Rule 28-a & one-stroke penalty) because I know it will take me several strokes to get out of the bunker & I’d rather re-hit from where I last played. In the interest of pace of play, may I drop another ball on the spot last played versus walking all the way to the bunker to retrieve the ball and walk all the way back to the spot last played?
January 9th, 2009 at 4:03 pmC.G.
When you choose to use the Stroke and Distance option under any rule (Water Hazard, Lost Ball /Ball OB or Unplayable), you may immediately drop another ball and play it. You do not need to retrieve or even identify your ball. If you chose to use any other option under the unplayable ball rule, you would have to find and identify your ball, but you could drop another ball. Decision 28/1 covers this.
January 9th, 2009 at 4:08 pmRegarding posting unfinished rounds, in your Dec 7 1:36PM response you said “For the purpose of posting, you should determine the number of handicap strokes you would receive on each of the unplayed holes and add that to par for those holes.” How do I determine the “handicap strokes”? Is there a chart that gives the hole-by-hole handicap strokes for my index?
January 12th, 2009 at 1:50 amC.G.,
Every scorecard has a row on it labeled Handicap (some have Men’s and Women’s). Each hole is allocated a handicap number, 1 through 18. The hole with the 1 is the #1 handicap hole, the 2 is the #2 hole etc. A player who is a 1 handicap would get a stroke on the #1 handicap hole. If you were to look at the score card for the NCGA’s Poppy Hills course, you would see that the 15th hole is the #14 handicap, the 16th is #2, the 17th is #18 and the 18th hole is #12. Therefore if a 5 handicap player quit playing after the 14th hole, he would calculate his score for posting by giving himself pars for holes 15, 17 and 18 and a bogey for 16. A 13 handicap would get pars on 15 and 17 and bogies on 16 and 18 and a 30 handicap would get bogies on 15 and 17 and double bogies on 16 and 18. There are many rules covered in the USGA’s Handicap manual on how to allocate these strokes.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:17 amA player hits his ball into a water hazard and decides to drop under option 26-1.b. When he drops the ball it rolls more than 2 club lengths away so he picks up the ball for a re-drop under 20-2.c.(vi). Before he re-drops may he move to a different spot (forward or back) along the line established under 26-1.b?
January 13th, 2009 at 10:46 amDan,
Yes, he can. Decision 20-2c/5 tells us that a player who is required to re-drop cannot change his option, but he can certainly choose another point that meets the option he first selected. If not, Rule 20-2c would need to state that the second drop must be as near as possible to the first drop, which it doesn’t.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:00 amHint for those attending an NCGA Rules Workshop in 2009, remember this answer.
A tournament was played last weekend where our NCGA club started on the back nine and finished on the front nine of the course. There were two players with the same net score. The rules of golf state that, “ties shall be decided over the last nine, last six, last three, or last hole.” Does that mean the last nine holes played or last nine holes on the course scorecard? I say it is about the last nine holes played. Am I right?
January 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pmHank,
Typically it would mean holes 10-18 on the scorecard. I’ve never heard of it being anything else. It would be a good idea for those running the tournament to specify what they mean just to avoid confusion, but without anything else being said, that is how I would interpret it. You really cannot use the last nine holes played as they can be vastly different. As an example, San Jose Country Club is a par 33 on the front 9 and par 37 on the back 9. Or if it was a shotgun start, everyone would have a different set of 9 holes.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pmTee shot lands in fairway bunker. When player hits second shot, the ball drives into the wall of the bunker just above the edge of the sand and is lost in the dense dirt under the rough.
Where would the drop be taken since the ball is no longer in the vertical plane of the bunker’s wall, but it is now under the rough? Is the ball to be dropped in the bunker or on the rough?
January 14th, 2009 at 11:13 pmLance,
January 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pmFirst, since you said the ball is lost in the dense dirt, the ball is lost and you would have to proceed under stroke and distance by dropping at the point in the bunker where you last played from. Assuming you could find the ball and wanted to declare it unplayable, the following applies.
The definition of “bunker” says that a wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is a part of the bunker. Therefore the ball entered the ground in the bunker.
Decision 13/4 says that a ball is considered to be in the bunker if it entered the ground in the bunker so your ball is in the bunker, even if it is outside the vertical wall of the bunker. Therefore, if you found and identified the ball and wanted to use options b or c of Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable, you would have to drop it in the bunker.
I had hit a ball on a par 3 to an island green, the ball landed near the front of the green and appeared to stick for the time I was looking at it, I turned around and put my club in my bag and turned back around towards the hole only to see a seagull chasing my ball down the slope and the seagull hit the ball twice with its beak, the ball entered the water. I then saw the seagull enter the water and it appeared that it picked it up and flew off with my ball. I was not sure if the seagull originally pushed my ball or my ball started rolling on its own. However I did see the seagull twice interfere with the roll of the ball. I proceeded under rule 27-1 and hit a ball from the drop zone and two putted and recorded a 5 for my score. Should I have been granted relief where I first saw the seagull interfere per rule 18-1 or is 27-1 the proper ruling. By the way during this time my partner was teeing his ball and only saw the seagull chasing my ball into the water. We also observed other seagulls disturbing other balls that landed on the green that were replaced under rule 18-1
January 18th, 2009 at 8:13 pmLeslie,
The seagull is an outside agency. Since you say your ball was at rest on the putting green when it was moved by the seagull, Rule 18-1 says you should place it at the spot where it was. Since the ball was not immediately recoverable, you may substitute another ball. There is no penalty involved.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:16 amIf your ball had not been at rest, Rule 19-1a would have applied. Normally if your ball in motion is deflected or stopped by an outside agency you would play it as it lies. But, since the seagull was taking action to cause it to continue moving, you should handle as if it ended up in or on a moving animate agency and placed a ball at the point where the gull first made contact with it. Again, if the ball is not recoverable you may substitute and there is no penalty. Decision 19-1/6 covers this.
John,
Maybe a little more clarification is needed. I did not see whether the seagull started the ball rolling or it started rolling on its own nor did my partner or any one else in our group. The ball appeared at rest for a few moments after hitting it onto the green. I only saw the seagull chasing and hitting the ball after it was moving and was part way down the slope. When we got to the green we did see the ball mark near the top edge of the slope. In the note that follows rule 18-1 it states “it must be known or virtually certian that an outside agency has moved the ball in the absence of such knowledge or certianty, the player must play under rule 27-1. Since we never saw what caused the intial movement of the ball this is what we proceeded under. Could I have still used rule 18-1 knowing other balls had been moved by the seagulls or must I see the initial movement to my ball by the outside agency to proceed under 18-1? Many Thanks
January 19th, 2009 at 9:52 amLeslie,
January 19th, 2009 at 11:19 amSince you did not see if the gull started it moving or if it moved on its own, it comes down to the best estimate that can be made. Since you saw the ball at rest, at least momentarily, in the absence of any other factors such as severe wind or a very steep slope, it can probably be concluded that the ball was moved by the gull. If those factors were present, then it is possible that the ball started moving before the gull attacked it. But, if we assume that gull did strike the ball while it was moving and caused more movement or altered its movement, Rule 19-1a would still apply. In the case where Rule 18 applies, you would put the ball back where it came to rest. If Rule 19 applies, you would put the ball where you believe it was first struck by the gull while it was moving. In either case, I believe you can go to the green and play from there.
I reached the Par5 11th green in regulation at the 2008 Pittsburgh City Tournament at Delta View GC by hitting driver, driver, 7 iron! The wind was outrageous and the slope of that green + pin placement was outrageous! Loved it! However, my 4ft birdie putt, which I incidentally just barely “tapped”, finished 30 yards down the fairway! As did my next 2 pitch shots. Ultimately, I got a 9 on the hole as did a few others. It pretty much blew the wind out of my sails.. haha! After the round, one of my playing competitors mentioned that I could have deemed my “birdie” putt now lying 30 yards down the fairway unplayable and played my 6th shot from where I just played my fourth (stroke + distance). 4ft is closer than I would probably ever hit my 30 yard pitch shot, so this seems like a good deal. Is this true? And if so, do I “drop” on the green or “place”? And why didn’t Tiger Woods do this when he putted off the 13th green into Rae’s Creek at the Masters that year? I’m thinking because it isn’t legal?
Nice article and good read, thnx!
January 20th, 2009 at 7:44 pmEDIT:
btw, this security code captcha stuff has gotten out of hand. “prove that you’re not a bot!” .. geez, how are humans supposed to read those letters! :)
Steve,
Yes, you could have declared your ball unplayable and tried the putt again. Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable allows you to declare your ball unplayable anywhere on the golf course except when it is in a water hazard. Option (a) under that rule allows you to play from where you played your last shot (stroke and distance). Rule 20-5 says that when you are playing your shot from where your previous shot was played and that was the putting green, you place the ball. So, you could have declared your ball in the fairway unplayable and placed it back on the spot you where you had hit the putt.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:55 pmAs to why Tiger Woods didn’t do that at the Masters, he was playing under Rule 26 (Water Hazard), but he could also have placed his ball back on the green. But, his putt was much longer than a 4-footer and he probably felt he could chip it closer rather than risk putting it back in the water.
I have been informed that Tiger Woods did choose to use option (a) under Rule 26 and placed his ball back on the putting green on the 13th at Augusta in 2005.
I was reading one of the other questions, and it made me think about this…if you chip on to a green and the ball rolls back past where it was before the shot, and goes into the water..do you still have the option of playing from the original shot since this would be closer than where the ball went into the hazard?
January 20th, 2009 at 10:54 pmFrank,
At any time you may proceed under Stroke and Distance, even if the point where you made the stroke from is closer to the hole than where your ball ended up.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:32 amI am not a member of a private country club (and never have been), but my NCGA handicap is ‘registered’ with a private club. Am I eligible to play in the NCGA Public Links championship?
January 21st, 2009 at 11:20 amI read in the Decisions book that if two players both lose balls in a water hazard, the order of play for the next shots is decided by lot. Would it make any difference if the balls that were lost had both been hit from the tee? And is order decided by lot if one player hit again from the tee and the other player decided to drop along the hole/margin line and was closer to the hole than his opponent who was using the tee box? (The note under 10-1 leaves me still unclear).
January 21st, 2009 at 11:24 amSpalding,
The NCGA follows the same definition of a public golfer as the USGA in determining who is eligible for our Public Links. Championship. Contestants must be bona fide public course players who do not hold playing privileges in any course from which the general public is excluded or privileges in any private club maintaining its own course. Exceptions: A bona fide public course member may hold incidental privileges at a course not open to the public when such privileges are provided by: (1) An educational institution of which he is a student; or (2) Federal Armed Service of which he is a member; or (3) An industry by which he is employed.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:27 amIf you have a specific question about your case, please call our Rules and Competitions Department at 831-625-4653.
Drew,
January 21st, 2009 at 11:47 amIt does not matter where the balls were played from in the case described.
The note to 10-1 means that if your only choice was to play under stroke and distance (lost ball outside a water hazard or ball Out of Bounds), the point of your previous stroke is used to determine order of play. If you have other options such as a ball in a water hazard, you use the current location of the balls.
In the case where both balls are lost in the same general area of a water hazard, it can’t be known which ball is further from the hole. Therefore the decision as to who will play first must be made by lot as described in Decision 10/3. This decision is irrespective of which option the players might choose under the water hazard rule.
If the two balls lost in the water hazard were lost in signficantly different areas (I top my ball into the hazard and you fly yours 200 yards further before it splashes), the player whose ball was obviously further from the hole would play first.
If one ball was lost in the hazard, but the other player’s ball was outside the hazard approximately the same distance from the hole, the order would again be determined by lot.
A player decided to test the rough, so we placed (grounded) his club IN FRONT of the ball (say 6 inches), subsequently the ball moved. The player contends he did not incur a penalty because grounding your club must be at address. What is the ruling?
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:47 pmMark,
January 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 pmThere are two reasons a player gets penalized when his ball moves. A player is penalized under Rule 18-2b if he has addressed the ball and it subsequently moves. Decision 18-2b/5.5 says that a player who “grounds” his club in front of the ball is liable for penalty under Rule 18-2b. Therefore, if he has completed his stance and grounded the club in front of the ball he has addressed it.
The other way a player is penalized is under Rule 18-2a. Under this rule, the player is penalized if he causes his ball to move. If it can be determined that the placing of the club in front of the ball caused it to move, he would be subject to penalty even if he had not completed addressing the ball.
But, beyond all that, if, in placing the club down in front of the ball, he, in any way, improved his line of play (pressing down some grass etc), he would be in violation of Rule 13-2 which is a two-stroke penalty (loss of hole in match play) regardless of the ball’s subsequent movement. At that point his action would have violated two different rules. Since one action caused this, he would receive the greater of the two penalties which would be for the violation of Rule 13-2.
Thursday, 29 Jan 09 at the FBR/Scottsdale Open. Anthony Kim’s ball came to rest in a cactus. He took an unplayable lie, going back on the line from the pin through the ball. He stopped and dropped his ball just off the concrete cart path. Now his stance was ON the concrete cart path and he hit it from there. The poor footing resulted in a mediocre shot. As I understand it, he could have taken additional relief, with no penalty, from the cart path and the video clearly suggested that he would have had a better lie, a better stance, and a better angle to the green. Is my interpretation right and if so, do you have any idea why he chose NOT to take the additional relief? There was a rules official helping, but I suppose he was under no obligation to volunteer the info about the additional relief option. Thanks. Chuck
January 30th, 2009 at 3:49 pmChuck,
Anthony Kim did take an unplayable from the cactus and used option (b) of Rule 28. He called the official over to determine if he was allowed to drop the ball where he did and if he didn’t like his lie, would be able to take relief from the cart path. He was told that he could take relief if he had interference from the path after dropping. He did have interference but he evidently liked the lie he got and decided to play the ball while standing on the path.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:06 pmFrom there he hit his shot onto the cart path by the green, again chose not to take relief and chipped it from the path. He then made a 8-foot putt to save his par 5.
In 4 ball play both my partner and I are on the green. I putt and my partner who has not previously marked his ball, quickly marks and lifts it after my putt is in motion thinking my ball might hit his. Do we both get penalized or just my partner for lifting his ball after mine was in motion? Or do neither of us get penalized as the balls never collided? Are the rulings different for stroke and match play?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:59 pmDrew,
Your partner is not allowed to lift a ball while another ball is in motion that might assist or interfere with another players ball. Therefore, he would receive the general penalty under Rule 22-2. In stroke play, he would recieve a two-stroke penalty. In match play he would be disqualified for the hole and your score would have to count for the team.
If his ball would have hit yours had it been left in place, he would also be penalized under Rule 30-3f in match play or 31-8 in stroke play as your violation would have assisted him.
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:31 amDoes the number one handicap hole have to in the first nine holes of play? If so, why is that?
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 pmWilliam,
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pmIn general, yes they should be on the first nine.
The following is from the USGA Handicap System Manual:
“The USGA recommends that the odd-numbered strokes be assigned to the holes on the first nine and the even-numbered strokes to the holes on the second nine.
This format equalizes, as nearly as possible, the distribution of handicap strokes over the entire 18 holes, and makes matches more equitable. In a case where the second nine is decidedly more difficult than the first nine, consideration should be given to allocating the odd-numbered strokes to the second nine.”
My question has to do with the embedded ball rule. The rule itself reads: “25-2. Embedded Ball A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.” Watching the PGA, it appears this rule is loosely interpreted as the pros tend to get a drop whenever the ball embeds in it’s pitch mark, even in light rough. If the ball is embedded in the rough, can you get a free drop?
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:12 pmKen,
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:26 pmYou are correct that the rule as found in Rule 25-2 only allows relief in closely mown areas. In Appendix I on page 107 of the 2008-2009 Rules of Golf, there is an optional local rule allowing relief through the green. The only exceptions to that are for relief from sandy areas in the rough or when it is clearly unreasonable to play the shot due to some other factor.
Every tour and association, including the USGA and the NCGA, that I am aware of in the United States implements the local rule. In the rest of the world, it is not so universal and it is primarily the opposition of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews that has prevented it becoming the rule.
When putting, I noticed that a player straddles the line of putt behind the ball, looks at the hole and takes practice strokes. Before the practice strokes begin, he grounds the putter so that it touches the extended line of the putt behind the ball the toe of the putter pointing to the hole and the entire length of the putter touching the extended line of play. then when he moves in to address the ball and putt. He leaves the putter on the ground, touching the line of play with the putter’s toe still pointing at the hole, then right before he takes his stance, he moves his putter to aim it and places it right behind the ball then putts. Before he takes his stance, is the touching of the line of play allowed in the fashion described above? Thanks!
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:04 pmJoe,
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:23 pmThe definition of line of putt states that it is the line the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. It starts at the ball and ends at the hole. Therefore, if he is placing his putter down behind the ball, he is not touching his line of putt and there would be no violation. Even if he were touching the ground in front of the ball, if it was while in the process of addressing it, Rule 16-1a would exempt him from penalty as long as he didn’t press anything down.
Are scores shot in a foreign country to be posted in the NCGA? I’ve been in the Philippines for six months, playing almost 20 rounds so my current index is not reflective of my current play.
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:35 pmRobert,
If the course has a course rating and a slope you should post your scores.
February 4th, 2009 at 8:58 amOur club is going to hold its first match play tournament this year. We had a question as to scoring in match play when men play women on a hole that is of different par for men and women. For instance, there is a par 74 course for women that is par 72 for men. Hole 11 is a par 5 for women and a par 4 for men. If both score a 5, is that hole halved?
Thanks!
February 5th, 2009 at 1:23 pmDoug,
In the USGA Handicap Manual, Decision 9-4a/3 covers this. According to that decision, par is irrelevant. The player who completes the hole in the fewest strokes wins the hole.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:58 pmHi,
February 7th, 2009 at 6:02 pmAt our course, a par three with a water hazard also has a drop area. I hit my first shot into the hazard and took a chance and tried to play the ball from where it was in the hazard. My plan backfired and the shot ended up out of bounds. Then, I decided I no longer wanted to try playing out of the hazard; I wanted to drop outside the hazard. Could I have still used the drop area? Or must I use one of the other w/h options?
Drew,
February 8th, 2009 at 12:14 pmThere is nothing in the rules to prohibit you from using the drop zone.
Since your ball went out of bounds, you would get a penalty stroke to get back to where you hit from inside the hazard (Rule 27) and another one to get out of the hazard (Rule 26). Rule 26-2b covers when a ball is hit out of bounds from a water hazard.
A local player was on the green and his teammate skulled a shot from off the green toward that player. The player stopped the ball with his putter to keep it from going off the green. The player who stopped the ball incurred a two stroke penalty under rule 1-2 (and the risk of being disqualified). What does the player who hit the ball do? Does he cancel his shot and replay from the same position? Does he incur a penalty?
February 13th, 2009 at 6:35 pmSonny,
February 14th, 2009 at 9:11 amBy teammate, I am assuming you mean a partner in a four-ball event rather than a teammate in an event such as a college tournament. I also assume we are talking about stroke play. Decision 1-2/7 talks about a similar kind of incident, although it is match play and on the putting green so I’ll extrapolate from it.
Because the player whose ball is affected suffers the consequences of the actions of his partner he would be penalized 2 strokes under Rule 1-2. If the breach was a serious one, he would be disqualified for that hole. If the action by the partner was a casual one the partner would not be penalized (e.g. he just reached out and stopped the ball as it went by). If it was more purposeful (e.g. he positioned himself there with the intent of stopping the ball from going in a hazard), he would receive a two-stroke penalty and if it was deemed to be a serious breach, he would be disqualified for that hole. Since both players are disqualified for the serious breach, the team would be disqualified under Rule 31-7b.
I just read Stump the Rules Wizards in the winter issue of NCGA Golf. The illustration on page 64 shows the drop line on a line extended from the location of the ball in the hazard to the hole. It seems unlikely a tee shot would have entered the hazard at this point. Shouldn’t the entry point more likely be to the right of what is shown, with the resulting drop line more in line with the tee box? Thanks.
February 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pmPat,
February 16th, 2009 at 10:30 amThe line is not really from the location of the ball, but from the point where that line crossed the yellow line on the green side of the hazard. The illustration shows a ball that flew to the green and was taken back into the water by backspin or the slope of the green and its surrounds. The fact that ball ball happens to be on the line is irrelevant. All that matters is where it last crossed the line. In looking at the picture, I can see how the arc also makes it appear to be picture of the ball in the air, but that was not the intent. If the ball had not been on the green side at any time (in the air or on the ground), the point of entry would have been on the tee side where the black line crosses the yellow one and player could have kept that point between the point he drops and the hole in taking relief.
I’m either blind or the link to “Stump…” is gone. I have to use the search window to find the questions thrown your way. Can we get a more direct link to your questions and answers on the home page?
February 16th, 2009 at 4:26 pmDrew - It is now the bottom link in the green box placed on the middle right of the homepage. Thanks,
February 16th, 2009 at 4:33 pmIn a recent tournament, I pitched my ball from a down hill lie where it landed on the green and proceeded to roll off the green and come to rest in an animal hole at the edge of the fringe just before a 6-inch strip of rough that then dropped off into the water. There were no hazard lines drawn on the ground, and my ball was outside the line between the nearest two red stakes. In this case, a portion of the green was also outside these stakes. It was determined that I don’t get free relief from the burrowing animal hole and I had to play it as it lies or return to the spot of my previous shot.
Was this the correct ruling? Could I have dropped my ball on the green where it entered the hazard line? Can you expand on the interpretation of the hazard line for peninsula or island greens with red stakes?
Thanks,
February 23rd, 2009 at 8:44 pmAlex
Alex,
You say that your ball was “outside” the line, but you seem to imply that your ball was inside the water hazard. There is no relief from abnormal ground conditions such as a burrowing animal hole when your ball is in a water hazard. Therefore your only was to play it or proceed under the water hazard rule. Given that the stakes were red, you have 4 options under that rule. Sometimes they are not all available.
Option 1 is to return to where you just played from, which is what you were advised. Option 2 would be to drop on the far side of the hazard, keeping the point where your ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. Option 3 was to drop outside the hazard within two club-lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the margin at a point no nearer the hole. Option 4 would be to determine if there was a point on the opposite margin of the hazard the same distance from the hole as the point you last crossed and drop within two club-lengths of that no nearer the hole. From your description, it sounds like Option 3 was not available due to all points being closer to the hole. I don’t know if any others were available. As for an island green, some of the options might or might not exist due to the nature of the hole. You should also be aware that in determining a location for Option 4, you can not cross areas that are outside the hazard so you can’t go to the other side of the island and drop.
February 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 pmMy ball lies within a tree well and it is clearly cut for irrigation purposes. Do I get relief from the well whether the tree interferes with my swing or not?
February 24th, 2009 at 10:06 amKacey,
Decision 33-2a/10.5 says:
“. What is the status under the Rules of tree wells or tree basins?
A. There is no relief under the Rules from tree basins which are not made of artificial materials.
If a tree basin has an artificial wall, the wall is an obstruction unless the Committee deems it to be an integral part of the course under
February 24th, 2009 at 10:29 amRule 33-2a.”
The following was told to me so I can’t be sure of the correctness of the situation. (Perhaps you have better knowledge of the circumstances.) Anyway, I was told that at the recent ATT, Charles Howell, playing the fifth hole at PB hit his tee shot off the cart path and his ball ended up inside the jacket of a spectator who was standing further down on the cart path. What is the sequence of drops that Charles Howell would have had to make to get his ball back into play correctly?
February 24th, 2009 at 2:52 pmDrew,
Rule 19-1 covers a ball in motion that is deflected or stopped by an outside agency. In general, the ball is played as it lies. But, if it comes to rest or on a moving or animate outside agency, the ball is to be dropped at the point where it came to rest in or on the outside agency. Therefore, Howell must drop a ball at the point where the person was standing when the ball went into his/her jacket. If after dropping, he had interference with the cart path, he could have taken relief from it.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:58 pmHello, I was playing in a Match Play event last weekend and I have a question. During the match, a player who was also in the event and had played the course that same day came out and started to caddy for my opponent, his friend. My opponent did not ask my permission but I did not bring it up. It might be too late for me now, but is that legal? I think there are differences in match and stroke play. Thanks.
February 24th, 2009 at 4:52 pmJames,
Decision 6-4/8 says that it is ok for a player who has already played the course that day (or one who is going to play it later) can caddie for another player. Here is the wording:
Q. Two players playing in the same competition at different times on the same day caddie for each other. Is this permissible?
A. Yes.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:13 pmFrom a Rules Quiz:
“A” plays his tee shot to the green on a par-3. He marks and lifts his ball. When it is his turn to play, he replaces a ball on the green and while he is lining up his putt, the wind blows the ball closer to the hole. He marks and lifts the ball but before replacing it, he notices that it is not the ball he played from the tee. He removes the original ball from his pocket and places it back at the spot his tee shot had come to rest. He then sinks the putt. “A” has scored?”
Ok, wind is not an outside agency so normally A would play his ball from the spot closer to the hole. The key to the question is whether the wrongly substituted ball gets to be played from the spot closer to the hole or does it have be replaced back at the spot where the tee shot landed and where the wrong substitution was made. Which spot is the correct home for the next stroke?
March 2nd, 2009 at 3:16 pmDrew,
When A put down the incorrectly substituted ball, it became his ball in play (Rule 15-2). When the wind moved his ball in play to another place, he should play it from that location. If the wind moves a ball marker, the player should replace it, but if it moves your ball in play you play it from where it comes to rest. Under Rule 20-6, he should have replaced the substituted ball with the original at that point since he had not yet played a stroke at the substituted ball. Therefore, by returning to his original spot, with the original ball, he has lifted his ball in play and not replaced it properly and is penalized 2 strokes under Rule 20-1.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 amIn the internet discussion on this question, it was argued that it was necessary for the player to place his ball where the wrong substitution took place. Your explanation makes much more sense. Thanks.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 amWhich takes precedence in a “Protection of Young Trees” situation when the local rule says the player MUST take relief and the exception says player may NOT take relief if interference by anything other than the tree exits, perhaps by:
March 4th, 2009 at 10:26 am1) Integral parts of the course which include cables, rods, wires or wrappings when closely attached to trees
2) A boundary wall or fence
3) Tree roots or some other possible unplayable situation.
Drew,
March 4th, 2009 at 10:34 amThe items that are tied to the tree and declared integral parts of the course are a part of the tree in this case so relief would be granted. Assuming the tree roots were from this tree, they would also be included. If the ball was unplayable for some other reason such as a bush which prevented the player from taking a stance relief should be denied. Also, if a boundary wall or fence prevented the player from playing the ball, no relief would be available. If after taking an unplayable penalty away from those items, interference with the tree still existed, the player could take relief from it.
If the first group out on the final day of an NCGA tournament consists of three players, can a fourth substitute/marker player (provided his handicap is appropriate) play with the group?
March 15th, 2009 at 8:35 amC.J.,
Only players who have registered for the tournament can play during NCGA tournaments. Also, if a player is disqualified, he is not allowed to play in any further rounds.
March 18th, 2009 at 4:49 pmI may be over thinking this one but to speed up play I have seen players say they are hitting a provisional ball even though the first ball hit will clearly end up in the water hazard and not lost and not out of bounds. Is the player entitled to hit a provisional? If not is there a penalty? I’m asking because I have experienced a player hitting a provisional ball which ended up in a better lie than their 1st (which came to rest in the hazard) so they chose play the provisional.
March 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pm27-2. Provisional Ball
a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play
Kurt,
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:02 amIf a player hits a ball the he calls a provisional when the ball can clearly not be lost anywhere other than a water hazard. It is not a provisional, but his ball in play, lieing 3 (the second ball is played under Stroke and Distance.)
If there is a possibility that the ball could be somewhere other than a water hazard, the player would be justified in hitting the provisional. If the ball was found in the water hazard, he would abandon the provisional and either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule.
If he did not know it was a water hazard, he would be ok to have played the provisional, but once he discovered that the area where he hit the original ball was a water hazard he must abandon the provisional ball and either continue with the original or play a ball under the water hazard rule.
Anytime a ball is found in a water hazard or there is virtual certainty that it is lost in the water hazard, the provisional MUST be abandoned.
With all that in mind, there is a local rule which can be used to allow a provisional for a ball in a water hazard if the player’s only option would usually be to return to the previous spot and it would be very time consuming to do so. But, this must be instituted with a local rule and shouldn’t be used frequently. The local rule is specified in the Appendix of the Rules of Golf.
Hello, can you clear up a point regarding Rule 6-6b/c? A and B are competitors in stroke play match and at the end of the round, A signs his scorecard. B declines to attest A’s scorecard due to the application of a penalty. If A and B present their case to the Committee, can A’s score be adjusted without disqualification? Or is it too late as he already signed his score? Thank you.
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:43 pmWe recently finished a two man four ball tournament at the club I belong to. One of the teams was disqualified because their playing partners refused to sign their card due to - what they thought - were two rules violation that occurred during the round.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:29 amThe first perceived violation was thought to occur because, during the tournament - which was being played under lift, clean and place because of the recent rains - player A picked up what he thought was his ball, discovered it was not his, dropped it where he found it and subsequently picked up his own ball and proceeded to finish out the hole. While his ball was not even necessary because of his playing partners’ score on the hole, the opponents claimed that player A had cheated by dropping new ball in play.
The second perceived violation occurred when player A hit a ball into a lateral hazard. Using his option, he dropped a ball on a line extending past the point of entry and the hole location, made a legal drop, and finished out the hole.
The issue is not so much the legality of the two incidents, but weather of not the opponent should have made a claim at the time of the perceived rules violations and confronted the player in a timely manner. The opponent, in this case, decided to not say anything until AFTER the stipulated round and then refused to sign the scorecard.
What should occur at this point? The head pro of the course determined that, since there was no signed scorecard for the affected team, they would have to be disqualified and the second place team declared the winner.
Scott,
The scorecard can be changed until it is considered returned to the Committee. This should be defined by the Committee. At NCGA events, we define a scoring area. As long as the player is still within that scoring area, the card can be changed even if it is signed. We urge players to stay in the scoring area until we check the card. If there was any dispute, it can resolved.
March 23rd, 2009 at 10:10 amJeff,
March 23rd, 2009 at 10:18 amIn a stroke play tournament, there is no requirement for timeliness in making a claim such as there is in match play. Still, there are times when a violation might result in disqualification unless it is corrected before the player tees off on the next hole. Also, it is always best to get the facts straight as soon as possible. Therefore, it is best to bring the issue to the attention of the players involved as soon as possible.
If the marker refuses to sign the score card, the Committee in charge of the competition should determine the facts and make a determination. Once the determination is made, the marker should sign the card along with the player. But, the marker could still refuse to sign. The Committee can then accept the card without that signature. Decision 6-6a/4 covers this.
During a club match, competitor A used a legal rangefinder on a par three tee box. Competitor B demanded to know the yardage as measured saying that it was to be considered common knowlege. Did A have to tell B what yardage he measured?? Thanks
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 amJoe,
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:16 pmA is not required to tell B what he measured. Out of courtesy I would think the should though.
A player hits his ball into a tree. The ball is identifiable and even playable to a limited degree as it would be possible to get a club on the ball with a stroke similar to a baseball swing trying to hit a pitch very high in the strike zone. To make this stroke, the player would be standing in casual water. Does the exception to Rule 25 preclude him from getting relief or is this one of the times when the rules of golf help out the player? And if he does get relief, does the relief point start directly below the ball?
March 24th, 2009 at 6:46 pmDrew,
March 25th, 2009 at 9:33 amAs long as it is reasonable to make a stroke at the ball, you would be entitled to relief if you were standing in the casual water. You would need to determine the nearest point where you were not standing in the casual water and the ball would not be in it or your swing not interferred with if you dropped it there. Then drop within one club-length of that point with no penalty.
Okay my ball ends up in the base of a tree and I want to take relief.
March 29th, 2009 at 7:33 amI have 2 questions.
Can I take relief through the tree 2 club lengths.
also can you explain stance and club length relief and when it can be used.
George,
I assume that you mean you are declaring your ball unplayable when it is “in the base of the tree”. Under Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable, you have 3 options all with a penalty of one stroke. 1) You can return to where you played your last stroke 2) you can drop at a point that is along a direct line from the hole through the point where your ball was unplayable, no nearer the hole, going back as far as you want or 3) drop within two club-lengths of the point where your ball lies, no nearer the hole. If you choose option three, you measure the two club-lengths from the location of the ball. You could measure “through” the tree. To do that, estimate the amount of distance through the tree and continue from there with whatever is left of the two club-lengths.
Stance and club-length relief is used when taking free relief from immovable obstructions, ground under repair, casual water or the like. When you take a drop for things such as lateral water hazards or unplayable lies, you can drop within 2 club lengths, but you don’t necessarily get stance relief.
March 31st, 2009 at 11:32 amI addressed my tee shot on a windy day. During my swing the ball was blown off the tee. I could not stop my swing in time and struck the top of the ball. Am I allowed to retee or do I play on counting the stroke.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:04 amAt a recent boys’ High School Tournament (stroke play), Player A and Player B each had reached the green and marked their ball. Player A replaced his ball and struck his putt. As Player A’s ball was in motion, Player B replaced his ball. Player A’s ball struck player B’s ball. Is player B penalized two strokes? Does Player A continue play from where his ball came to rest after striking the ball of Player B?
April 1st, 2009 at 9:16 amAlan,
If your intent to hit the ball stopped, you would normally be considered not to have made a stroke, but Decision 14/1.5 says that if you hit the ball you would be considered to have made a stroke. Rule 11-3 says that if your ball falls off the tee and you make a stroke, the ball is in play and shall be played as it lies.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:50 amDuane,
Decision 16-1b/3 covers this. As long as B did not replace his ball with the intent of deflecting the ball, there is no penalty and A must play the ball as it lies. If B had replaced the ball with the intent of deflecting the ball, he would be in violation of Rule 1-2 and would be penalized 2 strokes or possibly be disqualifed.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:53 amGreat article/feature…thanks!
My question is in regard to Rule 7, and came up in a stroke play event. Player A plays his third stroke from a bunker, catches the ball thin and it flys over the green. In frustration (or confusion!), he makes another swing while still standing at his original spot where his third stroke occured. Player B argues that he is testing the condition of the hazard and should be penalized. Player A argues that Rule 7, Note 1 states that “A practice swing is not a practice stroke and may be taken at any place, provided the player does not breach the Rules.” Who is correct?
Thanks for your input, and again…great article!
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:20 pmIn reviewing Rule 13, I think it is important to add that in the situation described above, Player A’s ball did NOT lie in another “Similar Hazard” (bunker) after his third shot was played. I’m not sure if this factors into the decision, but wanted to add that detail.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:32 pmKevin,
As long as the ball is outside the original hazard there is no penalty. The only time a player is penalized for testing the hazard is if the ball lies in the hazard. Rule 13-4 says “before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard … the player must not (a) test the condition of the hazard or a similar hazard”. Since the ball is not in this hazard he can not be penalized under rule 13. As you said, Rule 7 only applies for practice strokes, not swings.
Additionally, even if his ball has come to rest in another hazard, he is not penalized due to Exception 3 in Rule 13-4 which says “If a player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.”
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:12 pmCan an opponent stand on the line of your putt to get a read while you are putting?
April 4th, 2009 at 12:10 pmEd,
There is nothing in the rules to prevent the opponent standing on the line to read the putt, but most people would consider it bad etiquette.
April 4th, 2009 at 12:11 pmIn an NCGA qualifier at our club a player hit his tee shot into an area of rough near an adjacent fairway and near where other players were playing their shots on that adjacent hole. After searching for his ball and finding an abandoned ball the player determined that someone from the other hole had played his ball. (Let’s assume for our question that he had virtual certainty.) Accordingly, he followed the plan of Dec. 18-1/5 and dropped a ball in an equitable location. Before he made a stroke at that dropped ball his original ball was found, presumably within five minutes. The player picked up the dropped ball and played the original ball onto the green and completed the hole and teed off on the next hole. What is the ruling?
April 4th, 2009 at 9:12 pmDrew,
If we assume he had virtual certainty (which might be debatable), when he dropped the ball, he had properly put a ball into play and the original ball was now out of play. Therefore, he should have continued with the dropped ball. The original ball was a wrong ball. If the ball had been dropped in an area that was definitely incorrect, he could correct that under Rule 20-6 by dropping in the correct area. See Decision 26-1/3.5 for an analogous situation with a ball dropped under the Water Hazard rule.
Given that he played a wrong ball and didn’t correct it before teeing off on the next hole, he should have been disqualified. But, since the competition is now probably closed and he was unaware of the error before it closed, he can not be disqualified at this point.
April 4th, 2009 at 9:13 pmOn the right side of two adjoining holes, a course has a lateral water hazard. The hazard is a water gully, and is constructed with concrete. If a player’s ball lies outside the hazard, but his stance would be upon the concrete, is the player entitled to relief based on the fact it is a man-made obstruction? Thanks.
April 4th, 2009 at 11:27 pmScott, As long as the ball lies outside the water hazard, the player is entitled to relief if he has interference with his stance or area of intended swing by an obstruction in the hazard. If the Committee wished to prevent that, they could declare the concrete to be an integral part of the course.
In determining the nearest point of relief, the nearest point outside the hazard that gives complete relief and the ball must be dropped outside the hazard.
April 5th, 2009 at 6:44 pmA follow-up question to my earlier one regarding the “stolen” ball: Could the player have played both balls (the original and the dropped ball) under 3-3 if he stated his intentions to do so before either playing either of the balls? And could he have used 3-3 after lifting the dropped ball or does that action negate the use of 3-3?
April 6th, 2009 at 12:29 pmDrew,
Yes, the player could have played both balls under rule 3-3 before playing either ball. His lifting of the ball would still allow him to play both balls, although, he would have been penalized one stroke on the ball he lifted when it was ruled to count. Once he had played one of the balls, he would no longer be allowed to use 3-3, although there is no penalty if he tried to do so.
April 7th, 2009 at 6:00 pmA players ball comes to rest on a cart path. The player picks up his ball without marking walks to the side of the cart path and drops the ball from less than shoulder height and then proceeds to hit his ball while standing on the cart path. I know he recieves 2 penalty strokes for not takeing complete relief but what about the other 2 infractions ? (This did happen in a qualifier) Thanks for your time.
April 8th, 2009 at 7:03 pmJake,
There is only one other violation which is dropping in an incorrect manner. There is no penalty for not marking the location as the ball is not being replaced. Decision 20-2a/3 says that if a player drops in an improper manner and in a wrong place and doesn’t correct it before playing a shot, he is penalized 3 strokes.
April 8th, 2009 at 7:37 pmWhen greens are under repair with airation and sand, am I allowed to post my handicap score?
April 8th, 2009 at 7:46 pmEileen,
Yes, scores should be posted when you play on aerified greens.
April 9th, 2009 at 7:38 amNext week we are going to play irons only. Are hybrids irons or are they woods? And, can you post a game when you only play with your irons.
April 9th, 2009 at 9:31 amLinda,
We checked with the USGA and they said there is no clear decision on what the status of hybrids are. It is up to the Committee in charge of the competition to state whether they are allowed or not. The USGA Handicap Manual states that you can not post a score when you play in an event that limits the number of clubs to less than 14 or restricts which kinds of clubs you can use. Therefore, you should not post the scores from this competition.
April 9th, 2009 at 12:48 pmI have been puzzled by this for years. During the 1992 Masters, Freddy Couples approach shot on hole 12 found the hazard but remained dry on the slope of the bank. He knocked his chip up close to secure par. However, immediately after his chip, Mr. Couples put his iron into the water pulled a ball out from Rae’s Creek and then chipped the ball back into the water while he was still playing the 12th hole. Why was he not stroked? Why was he not disqualified for signing for a wrongful score on his scorecard?
April 12th, 2009 at 8:55 pmJoseph,
I remember this was questioned at the time. It was decided that Couples was merely getting the ball out of the water as we all do and that his casual flick of it back into the water was not a practice stroke. Decision 7-2/5 is a decision in a similar vein that says “the casual flicking of a range ball, apparently only for the purpose of tidying up the course, is not a breach.”
April 13th, 2009 at 8:55 amI know that the margins of gur go down but not up; margins of a wh go up and down. What about the margins of an obstruction? We have a maintenance area at our club that is deemed to be an obstruction. In a few places, trees growing inside the fence line of the obstruction have branches that hang out of the obstruction area over areas that would not need relief from the fence that is the border of the maintenance area. If, however, one of these low hanging branches itself interferes with a player’s area of swing, does he get relief the same as if he were right up against the fence of the maintenance area?
April 18th, 2009 at 7:57 pmA player hits the front of the green that has a steep drop off. It’s actually amazing that the ball stays in place and does not roll of the green to the bottom of the hill below. Player marks his ball. Peparing to putt, player attempts to replace his ball where marked, has difficulty getting the ball to stay in place without rolling off the green but finally does. Prior to addressing the ball, the ball begins to move and rolls off the green to the bottom of the hill. What is the proper way for the player to now proceed?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:39 amDrew,
The Rules of Golf do not state if an immovable obstruction margins extend up or down. The only time this is considered relevant in the rules is when a ball is lost in an obstruction and it is deemed to have entered the obstruction at the edge (or drip line) of the obstruction.
Since the rules do not anticipate a situation such as you’ve described, I believe it must be decided in equity. A tree is not a man-made object and therefore, if the only interference the player has is with the tree, I do not believe he should be given relief.
It could be argued that this should be decided in a similar manner with ground under repair where all of a tree growing in the GUR is considered to be in the GUR, even those parts extending out of the GUR, but I do not consider this to be the same as the GUR is an area of natural ground that that is damaged or declared out of play for some reason while an obstruction is man-made. Additionally, the Rules Committee has decided that to extend the relief for GUR to things growing in it but have not done so for obstructions and therefore I don’t believe they want to do so.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:06 amJerry,
April 20th, 2009 at 8:09 amIf the ball was at rest when it was replaced and the player, his opponent in match or no other outside agency caused the ball to move, it must be played from where it comes to rest.
I hope you can answer this question.
I went to the hole to hit my drive I teed the ball but held back because someone from the group ahead of us came back to retrieve something in the middle of the fairway.
I immediately stepped away from my ball to wait for the group to clear the fairway. During this time I engaged in small conversation with one of my counterparts.
During the conversation I took a practice swing while facing my play partner and struck the ball by mistake. I was assessed a penalty and a stroke by the tournament director.
My impression is that I was not addressing the ball and that it was an unintentional hit and therefore I should not been assessed the penalty.
What is the correct ruling on this incident?
Warm Regards,
April 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pmMiguel,
April 21st, 2009 at 8:34 amYour ball was not yet in play as you had not made a stroke at it. Therefore, when you accidentally knocked it off the tee, you are allowed to re-tee it without penalty. There should not have been any penalty in this case. Rule 11-3 and the definition of ball in play cover this.
Players A and B are partners in a 4-ball stroke or match competition. At the second hole Player A tees off; before B tees offs he (B) discovers that he has 15 clubs in his bag. Decision 4-4a/11 tells us that in single stroke or match play competition no penalty would be assessed as the player with the extra club had not teed off, but what about the question above in which the side has begun the hole? Is any penalty for the second hole with too many clubs still dependent on just when the player with too many clubs begins the hole or when the side begins the hole?
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:07 pmDan,
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:55 pmThe side should be penalized on the second hole since they had begun the play of that hole. As in the case of a player who arrives late, once one player has teed off the side as begun play of the hole (Decision 31-2/1).
I am hoping that you can clear up a ruling for me. I hit my ball into a spot that was marked as ground under repair. I dropped my ball within one clubs length of the nearest point of relief that was not closer to the hole. The ball rolled down a hill, but within two club lengths of where I dropped it, and would have put my stance on a cart path. I picked up the ball and dropped again. The same thing happened where the ball rolled down a hill and again would have put my stance on a cart path. I then placed the ball where it hit the ground and continued play. Please let me know if I proceeded correctly, and if I did not, what would have been the correct course of action. Your attention to this question is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:44 pmJohn,
April 25th, 2009 at 7:40 amWhen you took relief from the ground under repair, you had proceeded correctly until you picked up the ball and redropped at the previous point. At the time you that your ball came to rest, your ball was in play in a correct place. The cart path is a separate situation. You could play the ball as it lies or take relief from the cart path by determining your nearest point of relief from it and dropping within one club-length of that point. You lifted your ball in play and placed it in an incorrect place. You would be penalized 2 strokes under rule 20-3 or Rule 18-2 in stroke play or lost the hole in match play.
Any time you take relief and your ball comes to rest in a correct place relative to the area you are taking relief from, your ball is in play. If you have intereference from something else, you can then play the ball as it lies or take relief from that. This could be taking relief from ground under repair and ending up next to an obstruction as happened in your case or even taking relief from one area or ground under repair and ending up with interference from another area.
Thank you very much for your response. I have another question. In this case, where I needed to drop was on a mound that had very little grass with packed clay soil, The total area may have been about 10 feet wide, with the cart path on one side, and the ground under repair on the other. There was enough room to establish a point of relief, but each point put me on the opposite side of the crest of the mound. If I had taken relief from the cart path as was the proper course of action, my next drop would have ended up on the other side of the mound, and rolled back into the ground under repair. There is a slim chance that it would have eventually stopped somewhere on the mound in play, but unlikely. How many times should I continue to drop if this keeps going on? I know this is a highly unusual situation, but I think that this is what would have happened in this case. Thank you.
April 25th, 2009 at 8:28 amI understand a player is entitled to relief from a rock filled French drain. Over time, if grass has grown over the stone, is the player still entitled to relief from the French drain?
April 25th, 2009 at 8:33 pmJohn,
April 27th, 2009 at 10:14 amRule 20-2c covers the seven times when you must redrop. One of these is if your ball rolls back into the condition you are taking relief from such as ground under repair. If it does so, you would redrop. If the ball agains rolls into one of the conditions covered, you would place the ball at the point where it first struck the course on the second drop. If the ball won’t stay at rest there, you will find the nearest point where it will stay at rest and continues to give you relief from the condition you took relief from initially.
Janice,
April 27th, 2009 at 10:16 amIf there is still a chance that the club could contact the rocks in the French drain, relief would be justified. We usually will probe with a tee around the ball to see if we can feel rocks. If so, we would grant a player relief. We wouldn’t want a player’s club to hit the rocks when she takes a divot.
Again, thank you for your response. I don’t mean to be a pain, but I am still confused. As I was taking relief from the cart path, the ball did not roll back into a position that I was taking relief from, it rolled back into the ground under repair, and ground under repair does not seem to be covered under rule 20-2c. Are you saying that even though I was dropping for relief from a cart path, because my ball was ORIGINALLY in the ground under repair, when dropping for cart path relief, I re-drop if the ball ends up in ground under repair? So in this case, even though I was taking relief from the cart path, if the ball rolls into the ground under repair, I do not proceed as if this is a new condition as I did when my first drop rolled onto the cart path. I drop twice and if it rolls into the ground under repair twice I then place the ball where it hit the ground. If this is the case, please let me know what rule this is covered by. I appreciate your responses and am just trying to make sure I understand correctly. Thank you.
April 27th, 2009 at 4:42 pmWhat if the wind blows the ball in the hole? It was not overhanging the hole. I hadn’t addressed it yet. After cleaning and replacing the ball a gust of wind moved the ball over three feet right into the hole. thanks, pat
May 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pmMy tee shot is on the fairway 200 + yards away. The tee shot of another player in my group hits my ball and moves it a short distance. Rule 18-5 tells us the ball must be replaced. Does replace mean place at the estimated spot or drop at the estimated spot?
May 1st, 2009 at 10:07 pmJohn,
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:50 pmI’m sorry I misunderstood, but once I did, I wanted to check something with the USGA.
Decision 1-4/8 discusses a situation where the ball lies in casual water and the nearest point of relief is on the cart path. After taking relief from the water, the player has interference with the cart path. The nearest point of relief is back in the casual water. After dropping there, in equity, he can find the nearest point that gives relief from both situations.
After checking with the USGA, I was told that this decision can be extended to include your case. So, after dropping twice and finding that you were going to be ping-ponging, you could find the nearest point no nearer the hole that would allow a drop to avoid both areas.
Pat,
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:52 pmOnce a ball is at rest, if it is moved by wind or water, it is played from where it comes to rest. Since that was in the hole, the ball is considered holed with the previous shot. This happened at the US Amateur in 2003 at Oakmont Country Club. A player’s second shot on the par 4 second hole came to rest about 2 feet above the hole. He marked, lifted, cleaned and replaced it so that it was at rest. While he was looking over the putt, the wind caused it to roll down into the hole for an eagle 2.
Drew,
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:55 pmNote 3 to Rule 18 tells us to use Rule 20-3c if the exact spot is not known. Rule 20-3c says that since the ball was lieing through the green, you must estimate it and drop it as near as possible to the estimated spot, no nearer the hole and not in a hazard or on the putting green.
I drove the ball next to a small tree right off the fairway, and my ball ended up leaning against a small tree root. There was no way I could hit the ball without first hitting the root. The tree was not staked and there was a small possibility of hitting root and snapping my iron. Is this a situation where I could get relief without a penalty stroke or is it an unplayable lie, take the penalty?
May 4th, 2009 at 3:22 pmCarlos,
May 4th, 2009 at 7:30 pmFrom what you are describing, your only options are to play that ball as it lies or take an unplayable lie and use on of the three options available under penalty of one stroke.
Guess I missed your reply. Will try again.
May 8th, 2009 at 10:14 amI am now over 80 years and no longer have distance so I have moved to the forward tees (red/ladies). I play weekly with my seniors club and
most players play from the white tees (Medal play). So the handicap question comes up. From reading your earlier replies. I now figure that I must take my handicap based on my index from the red chart and
then deduct 3 strokes (based on the slope difference for the different
tees on the course). Some say I should take my handicap, based on my index from the white tees and deduct 3 strokes and some say I should
just use the handicap for the red tees based on my index. Whos right?
Donald,
May 8th, 2009 at 10:55 amFirst, there needs to be a Course Rating and Slope for the Men from the red tees. If your course doesn’t have one, please have them contact our Handicap Department to get one. To calculate your Course Handicap when playing against players who are playing the white tees, you would first lookup your Handicap Index on the slope chart for the Red Tees. Then, you would calculate the difference between the Course Ratings for men for the red and white tees. Round any difference of .5 or greater up to the next number. Subtract that difference from your Course Handicap to determine how many stroke you get.
True or False
May 8th, 2009 at 10:24 pmPlayer A hits his tee shot into a lateral water hazard. He attempts to hit out of the hazard, but hits the ball into an unplayable spot.
His options are A) drop the ball to where he hit his second shot (in the hazard) with a one stroke penalty (laying 3) or B) Take a drop outside the hazard using the spot where his tee shot crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty (laying 4)
Rick,
May 9th, 2009 at 10:07 amFalse. A) He can drop at the point he just played from with a one stroke penalty (26-2a(i)), B) Proceed under options 26-1b or 26-1c with one penalty stroke using the point where he last crossed the margin of the hazard (26-2a(ii)), C) Return to where he last played outside the hazard (the tee) and play another ball from there with one penalty stroke(26-2a(iii)). In all these cases he would be laying 3.
If after proceeding in under option A above, if he doesn’t like where the ball comes to rest, he can use options B or C above with an additional penalty stroke (laying 4) (26-2a(i)(a or b).
If someone in the foursome picks up your ball, is there a rule in Golf that addresses that situation? We were told by the Pro that there is no rule in Golf to address this.
May 12th, 2009 at 8:32 amLarry,
May 12th, 2009 at 10:38 amRule 18 covers the movement of a ball at rest by anyone, Rule 20 covers the lifting of a ball. Rule 20 states that the ball that may be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorized by the player. Rule 18 applies when the ball is without authorization or when the rules do not allow it.
Penalties depend on the status of the person in question. If the person is your partner, he is authorized to lift the ball any time that you are. He must follow the same requirements of marking the position etc. (Rule 20-1) If he lifts it when the rules don’t allow it or without marking it, there is a one-stroke penalty (Rule 18-2a or Rule 20).
If you are playing match play, you opponent may not lift your ball without your permission. If he does so, he is subject to a one-stroke penalty. (Rule 18-3)
If you are playing stroke play, any fellow competitor in your group who lifts your ball without permission is not subject to penalty. (Rule 18-4)
In all cases the ball must be replaced if the rules require it or there would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in match play that would apply to you, regardless of who lifted it (Rule 18). The ball may be replaced by you, your partner or the person who lifted it. (Rule 20-3a)
That was an awesome answer to my incomplete question. Here is the real situation. A ball was hit off the tee that admittedly came close to a foursome in the fairway. The person who hit the ball thought he would not be close at all and the drive went well over 300 yards. Someone in the foursome in front lifted the ball so when they arrived the ball was gone. The four gentlemen admitted they took the ball but it could not be determined which person. The Head Pro got involved but said there is no rule to address this behavior. Although the pro was upset he advised there was nothing he could do.
May 12th, 2009 at 1:25 pmLarry,
May 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pmThanks for letting me know “the rest of the story.”
While it was very impolite of the group in front of you to pick up your ball, the only rule that could be applied would be Rule 33-7 which allows the Committee in charge of a tournament to disqualify a player who has breached etiquette among other things. This would be a very harsh punishment for a single offense.
Since there was definite evidence that the ball was moved by an outside agency, the player would have been allowed to substiute a ball and drop it as near as possible to where it was taken with no penalty.
We have some confusion on a new rule this year at our club. Within two club lengths of the green is an immovable obstruction. I have hit a shot behind this obstacle, which is within two club lengths of the obstruction and, I wish to putt the ball. Per the new rule, do I get free relief form the obstruction and get to drop my ball no nearer the hole and in the same mowed area without penalty? I believe this rule has to be written into the local rules to be in force. And finally, what rule is this under?
May 13th, 2009 at 1:16 pmDana,
May 13th, 2009 at 4:51 pmThe Local Rule you are referring to can be found on page 110 of the 2008-2009 Rules of Golf. In order to use this rule, the obstruction must be within 2 club-lengths of the edge of the green, your ball must be within 2 club-lengths of the obstruction and it must be on your line of play. Your ball can not be in a hazard. You would find the nearest point not nearer the hole where the obstruction is not on your line of play and drop there. Notice that you drop at the point of relief, not 1 club-length as in relief from a normal obstruction. Also, there is no guarantee that you will drop in the same mowed area. You might move from the fringe to the rough or vice versa.
In general, this rule should only be used at courses where there are large chipping areas around the greens and not when rough is generally close to the green.
Are you allowed to carry more than one driver during a round?
May 14th, 2009 at 3:48 pmWade,
May 14th, 2009 at 4:58 pmYou can carry any combination of clubs you want as long as you don’t have more than 14 clubs. Phil Mickelson carried two drivers at the Masters a few years ago.
During a PGA event, a player hit into a bunker. There was a separate bunker adjacent to the one his ball was in. He took a couple of practice swings, grounding his club, in the adjacent bunker. He then went to the bunker with the ball and played it out. He was not assessed a penalty and the TV announcers said nothing; however, I thought it could be deemed an infraction. Is that legal to do?
Thank you,
May 17th, 2009 at 12:26 pmJohn Wheeler
A players ball was in a bad lie in the rough. He stated that he was going to play the shot left handed because he wanted to be standing on a sprinkler which would give him a new improved lie. He took his drop and then played the shot right handed like he had been playing all day. Are you able to do this in the “fairness” of the game?
May 20th, 2009 at 8:06 amJohn,
May 20th, 2009 at 9:28 amPrior to making a stroke, the player may not test the hazard or a similar hazard in the method that you described. I know of no incident where this happened on the PGA Tour.
Jack
May 20th, 2009 at 9:31 amRule 24-2 has an exception which states “A player may not take relief under this Rule if … (b) interferencde by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.” If there was no reason for the player to hit the ball left handed, he is not entitled to relief and would be penalized two strokes for doing taking it in this situation.
If there was a tree or something else which prevented him from taking a right-handed stroke and the left-handed stroke gave him interference, he would be allowed to take relief as it would then be a necessary stance. If after taking relief he could play right handed he would be allowed to do so.
We had a recent club tournament and results were announced at the tournament site. Subsequently, while doing ESC adjustments for posting, I noted that one of the tournament winners had incorrectly added the totals on his scorecard. This incorrect total was used in reporting results of the tournament.
Under 34-1, a competition has been closed when the result has been officially announced and a penalty must not be imposed after the competition has closed. Under 33-5, the committee is responsible for the addition of scores.
The player signed a scorecard that was incorrect in terms of totals, but the scores on the individual holes was correct.
Is it therfore a correct interpretation that the tournament results should stand, but that the accurate ESC adjusted score should be posted for handicap calculation? I wanted to verify before posting.
Thanks in advance for your response.
May 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 amQuestion regarding Decision 7-2/1: Player A and B are partners in a 4-Ball stroke competition. A has picked up on a hole; B has yet to finish. While waiting for the hole to finish A putts on the green being played (or chips near the next teeing ground) away from the other players. Is A liable for penalty? If so would the penalty be assessed on the next hole as his score on the hole being played will not count? Is there any circumstance where the penalty would be applied to B? What about if the situation occurs on the last hole of the day? Similarly, what would happen if a partner, in a huff, teed off on the next hole before his partner had finished the previous hole?
May 23rd, 2009 at 2:54 pmMark,
May 24th, 2009 at 1:56 pmSince the Committee is responsible for the addition of the scores, the error should be corrected. Decision 34-1b/6 makes this clear. If this affects who received prizes, they should be correctly allocated. As for posting, the correct score should be posted. In the future, the Committee should make sure that it adds all scores when they are returned.
Our Golf Club has a local rule for relief from “Tree wells” and to treat them as ground-under-repair. I recently read that when taking relief from the tree well (ground-under-repair), you must take complete relief, which would include overhanging limbs or leaves of the tree in g-u-r, interfering with your stroke. It seems the Golf Club’s intention was to only get relief from the tree well itself and not the tree limbs. Can you tell me who is right?
May 25th, 2009 at 9:23 amIn 4-Ball if one partner is disqualified (only the one partner) or is injured and has to withdraw, do his scores on earlier holes that were the best of the two still count?
May 25th, 2009 at 7:31 pmA couple of questions regarding the use of electronic range finders:
For the upcoming NCGA Associate Club Championship (best 2 balls of 4), a) Please confirm it is acceptable to use electronic range finders and b) because members of our team will be playing in the same group, is it permissible to have just one range finder for use by both members in the group? Would this be equated to similar situations in team play where partners are permitted to get advice from their partner for things such as club selection, reading putts, etc….
May 26th, 2009 at 8:14 amDrew,
May 26th, 2009 at 8:26 amA would be penalized two strokes on the hole they were playing for practicing before the completion of the hole. B would not be penalized as long as he was not assisted in any manor by the practice (i.e. he learned about the speed of the green or the break.) It doesn’t matter if it is the last hole as the penalty is on that hole. Assuming A did not hole out and then he teed off before B had completed the hole, the team would started one hole before completing play of the previous one which would be a breach of Rule 1-1 and they would be disqualified. If A had holed out, his score would count for that hole and B would be penalized for practicing on the next hole during the play of the hole.
Alan,
May 26th, 2009 at 8:53 amIf the tree well is defined as ground under repair, anything that is rooted within it is also part of the ground under repair so the entire tree would be ground under repair.
Dan,
May 26th, 2009 at 8:59 amSome disqualification penalties get the entire team disqualified if one player commits it (See Rule 31-7). Others just disqualify the player in question for the hole being played. There are no penalties which would disqualify the player for the entire round without also disqualifying his partner. If a player gets injured or stops playing for a few holes, his scores on the holes he completed may be used.
Keith,
May 26th, 2009 at 9:03 amDistance measuring devices may be used at the Associate Club Championship as long as they do not have any functions for measuring things such as slope or wind speed. Information as to distance is not considered to be advice any longer so the information obtained from using an distance measuring device may be shared with anyone in the group.
Hi John,
May 28th, 2009 at 4:23 pmWith regard to your helpful answer above that there are no penalties which would disqualify the player for the entire round without also disqualifying his partner, what about the examples given in Decision 1-2/0.5? Rule 2-1 is not listed in 31-7 which would seem to be a dq for one partner but not the other. Or is the dq in these instances a committee decision which would bring Rule 33-7 into play, which is listed under 31-7 so that the side would be disqualified?
Dan,
May 28th, 2009 at 4:33 pmWhen you mentioned Rule 2-1, I assume you were still referring to Rule 1-2. Rule 1-2 would only disqualify the player for the hole unless the action assisted the partner (Rules 30-3f or 31-8). If the act was so egregious as to require a DQ, the only way that it might not help the partner is if his actions were in regards to his own ball. Obviously if he did anything to influence the partner’s ball it would help him. Also, if he did anything to influence someone else’s ball it would help the partner.
I had a situation during a match play round. We both teed off and hit our drives into the rough. I was walking and my opponent was riding out to find our golf balls. He got to a ball and hit it up on the green and then a few minutes later I got to the area where I thought my ball would be. After a five minute search, we couldn’t find my ball. Knowing that his ball was on the green and that I didn’t want to walk 250 yards back to the tee to play another ball, I conceded the hole. When he picked up his ball on the green he noticed that he had hit my ball. Does my concession of the hole still stand?
May 30th, 2009 at 1:40 amTom,
May 31st, 2009 at 4:49 pmWhen you opponent hit your ball, he lost the hole before you conceeded the hole. Therefore your concession does not stand. Decision 2-4/9 covers this exact situation.
A ball came to rest on a cart path (the side closer to the hole). Player requests for cart path relief. Question: does it matter which side of the cart path the ball ended up to determine the point of relief? Thanks
June 1st, 2009 at 9:00 amAidan,
June 1st, 2009 at 9:19 amWhen taking relief there is one nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief is the CLOSEST point on the course that is NOT nearer the hole where the player would have no interference for his stance, the lie of the ball and his swing. To determine this, the player should take the club he would most likely use and take a stance as if he were addressing the ball at that point. Where the club comes to rest when in the address position would be the point. He can then drop the ball within one club-length of that point, no nearer the hole. The player does not get a choice as to which side of the path he can go to. If he goes to an area that is further away than the nearest point or is nearer the hole than that point, he would be subject to penalty for playing from a wrong place.
Please clarify the rule of a ball in motion and when it is in play. What is the penalty when your ball moves while a)you address it, and b)you’ve already started your swing. Is it in play on the teeing ground when you address it? Or after you actually hit it? Thanks!
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:10 pmDuring a recent round my ball came to rest in bounds. The local rule defining out of bounds stated white stakes. A fence that was clearly out of bounds interfered with my stance and swing. Was I entitled to relief under 24-2 (b)?
June 4th, 2009 at 10:54 pmAnother question regarding 4-ball dq possibilities: in an NCGA zone competition, if one side were to be disqualified under 31-7 because of something that happened during the fifth hole, for example, would any of the scores of those two players that would have counted for the team from the first four holes still count? Or am I imagining an impossible scenario?
June 5th, 2009 at 12:02 amDennis, You would not be entitled to relief. The definition of an Obstruction excludes any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds.
June 5th, 2009 at 8:05 amDan,
June 5th, 2009 at 10:32 amThe Rules of Golf do not fully cover the Zone Competition format. We define the two players playing together as a “side” under the rules of golf. We require two scores per hole, but they can come from the same side which is where things get away the basic Rules. We say that it is ok for both players on a side to pick up on a hole. Our opinion on this is that if a player violates one of the Rules covered in Rule 31-7a his side will be disqualified and the other side’s scores must count for all holes. The same occurs if both partners are in violation of Rule 31-7b(i). But, if both players violate another rule (such as picking up or playing a wrong ball) as covered in Rule 31-7b(ii), we allow them to continue in a similar manner as covered in Rule 31-7c. If three players were to violate Rule 31-7b(ii) on the same hole, the team would then be disqualified because they would not have two valid scores for the hole.
Which options would be in place with this scenario? A shot is played from the fairway and enters a red stake(green cap) hazard and bounces out of the hazard and crosses over a cart path on the opposite side of the hazard and then enters a yellow stake(green cap) hazard on the other side of the cart path. Thank You.
June 8th, 2009 at 8:58 amBob,
June 8th, 2009 at 9:30 amIn determining the options a player has for a ball in a water hazard, the point where the LAST entered the hazard is what matters. In your case, the ball first entered the lateral water hazard (red stake), exited the hazard, and then finally reentered the water hazard (yellow stake). Since these stakes had green tops, the area is environmentally sensitive so you may not play the ball from inside the hazard. Therefore, the only two options you have can be found in Rule 26 as 26-1a and 26-1b. 26-1a allows you to play with a one-stroke penalty from where the previous shot was played. Rule 26-1b allows you to drop a ball outside the hazard with a one-stroke penalty keeping the point where the ball last crossed the yellow staked hazard between where you drop the ball and the hole.
Is there such a rule of a lost ball if it crosses a red stake hazard. In other words is there a two stroke penalty if you lose it. or does the one stroke lateral apply.
June 12th, 2009 at 10:42 amGary,
If it is known or virtually certain that your ball has come to rest in a water hazard (yellow stakes) or lateral water hazard (red stakes), you should proceed under Rule 26 which is the water hazard rule. As such, you can take relief from the hazard with a penalty of one stroke using one of the options described in Rule 26.
June 12th, 2009 at 11:30 amA player marks his ball on the putting green, and walks off the green a few yards onto the fairway while others chip onto the green. While he is waiting, he holds his putter in one hand, and taps his ball (which he has dropped on the turf of the fairway) repeatedly against the outside of his foot.
Has he incurred a penalty?
June 18th, 2009 at 1:31 pmPaul,
June 18th, 2009 at 1:38 pmWe do not believe this constitutes practice as he isn’t simulating a stroke. If he was doing it on the putting green, it could be ruled to be testing the surface, but since you said he was off the green there should be no penalty.
Whenever I play at my home course, I’m afraid of running into this particular situation in case I might do the wrong procedure. If my ball is resting against a tree and I am forced to make a left-handed stroke (I’m right-handed) but it puts my stance on a cart path, do I get relief? Thanks a bunch
June 20th, 2009 at 9:51 pmMichael,
June 21st, 2009 at 4:45 pmI think we get asked this question more times than it happens. If your ball is in a position that the left-handed stroke is a legitmate option because a normal stroke would not be possible and your stance would be on the path, you would get relief. You would determine your nearest point of relief with the left-handed stroke / stance. You could then drop within one club-length. If you could then hit it right-handed you would be allowed to do so.
during recent play a player drove his ball and landed on the cart path bridge which was crossing a laterial hasard on the right and a laterial hasard on the left Is this a free drop from the bridge or is the bridge considered part of the hasard?.
June 23rd, 2009 at 6:27 pmSam,
The definition of a water hazard states that it extends vertically upwards and downwards. Therefore a bridge that is over a water hazard is in the water hazard. There is no relief for an immovable obstruction in a water hazard so the player must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1 - Water Hazards with the one stroke penalty found there. The player may ground his club on the bridge in attempting a shot from it.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:40 amGene,
June 24th, 2009 at 2:26 pmWhen they teed off on the wrong hole, they were in violation of Rule 11-5. They must discontinue play of that hole and go to the correct hole, adding a two-stroke penalty to the score of each player who played from the wrong teeing ground. Since all four of them did it, each would receive a two-stroke penalty and be hitting their third shot from the #1 tee. The ball they hit on #10 does not count in their score.
I recently pushed my tee shot right of a cart path and on a hillside. This hillside was primarily bare dirt and riddled with gopher holes and mounds created by these burrowing animals. We located my ball in a small hole where only the top of the ball was visible. Everyone in the group agreed I was entitled to relief due to abnormal ground conditions (rule 25) After dropping within 1 club length from the nearest point of relief, I was standing on another gopher hole.
Is it now my option to play after the drop since I took relief from the original hole and ended up with a very good lie? The others in my group said I did not take complete relief and must drop again. When I read the definition of abnormal ground conditions, it refers to hole, cast, or runway created by a burrowing animal. (singular) Do you treat each and every hole, cast or runway as separate conditions and have the option a play it as it lies and ignore your relief options?
June 26th, 2009 at 8:14 amGordon,
June 26th, 2009 at 8:51 amThe two holes are separate instances unless they are connected by a runway above the ground. Therefore, once you have taken relief from the first one, you can play the ball or take relief from the second. If the area was sufficiently large we would probably mark it as ground under repair and get the player out of all of it at once.
BLIND DRAW…What does NCGA prefer? Controversy over whether the Blind Draw should be identified in a 2 bb of 4. One school: the blind draw is not identified and the hole by hole score is used. It is the responsibility of the 4 some getting the blind draw to putt out because they only have 3 players. Second school: the blind draw should be identified and that the blind draw should putt out. Third School: whether the blind draw should win as a draw, or if the blind draw can only win with the foursome it actually played with on course. IT MAY BE THAT ALL ARE CORRECT, I JUST WONDERED WHAT NCGA’S THOUGHTS MIGHT BE… IF THEY EVEN HAVE ANY…. Thank you… I’ll look for a reply in my e-mails… Gini
June 26th, 2009 at 12:01 pmWhile using my legal GPS during a match play tournament, my opponent stated that I was absolutely REQUIRED to provide him distances. I told him by doing so I did not want to be DQ’d by giving advice. He was so sure he was right that he was willing to forefit the entire match if he was wrong. I provided distances when ever asked. Am I required to provide my opponent distances and can he be DQ’d by insisting?
June 28th, 2009 at 11:06 amGini,
There are no right or wrong ways to do a blind draw. Nothing in the rules cover it. The one thing I would say is that the Committee in charge of the competition can do what they want, but they should publish ahead of time so that nobody can complain after the event.
June 28th, 2009 at 8:15 pmBrett,
June 28th, 2009 at 8:18 pmYou are not required to give anyone else the information you get from your GPS and there is no penalty if you refuse to do so. Likewise, you are not penalized for giving the information. Distance is considered public information.
Hello, a few questions about raking
1. A player has hit a shot from a large bunker. The shot does not get out of the bunker and remains in, but the player needs to walk quite a distance to get to his next shot. Is he allowed to rake his first shot before playing his second, or must his ball be out of the bunker before it can be raked?
2. Under the same conditions, if the player gets out of one bunker, but hits into another, is he allowed to rake?
3. A player hits a ball from a bunker potentially out of bounds. He elects to hit a provisional ball. Is he allowed to rake the bunker before he drops/hits?
Thanks.
June 29th, 2009 at 11:21 pm-Scott
Scott,
June 30th, 2009 at 7:05 amException 2 to Rule 13-4 reads:
“After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the may smooth sand or soil in the hazard provided that nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction
Therefore in regards to your questions:
1) As long as you don’t rake the area where you’ll be standing for your next stroke, around the area where the ball is at rest or along the line of play for your next stroke, you can rake the bunker.
2) No restrictions as the ball is out of the bunker you hit from. Exception 3 makes this even clearer.
3) Even though you have to drop a ball in the bunker, there is no restriction as the ball is currently out of the bunker. The only restriction is if you lifted the ball and had to place or drop it.
My question….What is the distance I could tee my ball behind the tee box markers
June 30th, 2009 at 11:36 pmJohn - You have two club lengths behind the tee markers in which to tee you ball.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:00 amIn a “scramble” format, if one of the competitors breaks a club, may that competitor use a club from the bag of one of the other playing partners?
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:11 pmAnthony,
July 4th, 2009 at 11:21 amRule 4-3 tells that if a player breaks a club in the “normal course of play”, he can replace it with any other club, except that the replacement can not be made by borrowing a club that has been selected for play by any other person playing the course. Therefore, he is not allowed to use the club of one of his playing partners.